Using Stealth in Melee - How?

[Orcus Porkus]

I'm struggling with this one.
I play a Barbarian with Dex 18 and Stealth.
I want to charge from being hidden into the enemy, and gain CA from it.
So far I've figured out the following procedure:
Before I move, I look for a place to hide. A tree, bush, column, whatever.
I move there. I make the opposed stealth check, and hopefully win, which means I'm hidden from my eventual target.
Then I charge into my target.
Now the rules say "If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty."
This practically means I can only use Stealth in melee very rarely. I can only use charge attacks unless I manage to hide right next to the target, AND the enemy must be really close by, otherwise I need to rerun the stealth check with a penalty.
Am I overlooking something here?
Also, if you have any general tips on how to use stealth in melee (not ranged) I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Dalzig]

IIRC, the stealth check is completed at the end of the action that breaks stealth. Therefore, since charge is a single action, you retain Combat Advantage until the end of the charge (which includes the attack). This means you can move your full charging speed.

But that's pretty much the only way you're going to get to use stealth in melee.

 

[Bumamgar]

Charging is special in that it isn't a move action. It is a standard action that includes movement as part of the attack.

This means that you can move to cover and hide (taking a -5 penalty to your stealth check if you had to move more than 2 squares) as a move action, and then charge and attack as a standard action that has the benefits of combat advantage if you were able to successfully hide.

Or you can move to cover on one turn, then on your next turn, hide with no penalty as a non-action, and then charge and attack as a standard action that has the benefits of combat advantage if you were able to successfully hide. You cannot then use your move action to return to cover, since a charge ends your turn. In this scenario you lose your move action.

 

[OchreJelly]

Sounds like there are a fews parts here.

1) In your first part of the example you are approaching the enemies outside of combat, no? What you are saying is basically true, however, if the enemy is distracted, you don't necessarily need to move from cover point to cover point on your approach. A districted enemy is based on DM discretion; it can range from npcs engaged in any activity that might make them less alert (talking, playing cards etc.).

2) You specifically mention charge. This is noteworthy in the stealth rules:
"If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action."

Well the move and attack in a charge all part of a single action (standard action). As long as you remain hidden a distance equal to your move, you have combat advantage on the charge! If you aren't charging what you want to do is look for powers that include moving or shifting as part of the power. Rogues have a lot of options in this department. I don't know about barbs, but it really is the rogue's shtick.

3) Lastly, once you are no longer hidden, it's true that it becomes difficult to hide again. You need superior cover or total concealment to be able to make a new stealth check. Basically in a combat situation you would need to run behind a wall, run around a corner, into a fog cloud, or become invisible to make a new stealth check.

Hope that helps.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

If you aren't charging what you want to do is look for powers that include moving or shifting as part of the power. Rogues have a lot of options in this department. I don't know about barbs, but it really is the rogue's shtick.

Thanks! The barbarian has Pressing Strike at-will, which allows a shift of 2 squares before the attack, even through enemies. That might come in handy - I haven't thought about it.

 

[OchreJelly]

Yup that would be a good power, similar to the rogue's it sounds like.

Also, I know you mentioned you wanted melee tips, but I wouldn't discount using heavy thrown weapons during an ambush situation.

 

[gtoasnt3]

We recently ran into the "stealth in combat" issue during our last game session. One of the characters has the sneak attack ability, and will go through great lengths to sneak up on any potential enemy. He'll receive one shot at the unwary target with his CA if he wants. Usually, he motions to the other PC's to approach if he isn't sure whether combat is necessary. He'll stay hidden just in case he needs the advantage.

Once combat starts, this PC will try to gain CA at any length. Once per encounter, he can use bluff if the PC is adjacent to the target. If he wins, then CA. He tried to use a pillar in the room where combat was taking place and asked if he could hide and then gain CA for the next round. Since the rules state that he couldn't due to the fact that the pillar only provided cover, he now looks for his fellow PC's to help him out. Daze, prone, invisibility (gained by one of the Warlock's Dailies), and flank are a few of his favorites.

 

[OchreJelly]

Sounds like your rogue is using all the tricks available to him. Flanking is usually the go-to for CA once in combat. Don't forget about blinding your foes. Does prone work as well? I can't recall offhand.

 

[YuriPup]

Speaking as a GM, an not a rules lawyer, I would be extremely reluctant to allow a simple breaking of LOS to let you get back into stealth. Particularly if you reappear from the same place you disappeared from.

You work in a break LOS and appear from somewhere else, I have no problems with that.

But after pulling that trick once (for smart mobs) or twice (for less swift ones), I would have them counter trap you too--braced for charge and the like.

Better to work with your party to get you in position for CA--flanking being the easist, I think.

 

[OchreJelly]

Well most situations where you break LOS are cases where you gain total concealment or cover, which allows you to retry a stealth. This really only happens in practical play when a PC runs around a corner, gets behind a wall, or really big rock etc.

Putting rules lawyerness aside I think it's still pretty realistic. Imagine a gunfight in a movie where the protagonst just runs around a corner. The villain is coming up to the corner but is wary. He doesn't know if the protagonist is going to pop-out high or low and take a shot at him. Basically by not seeing him he can't anticipate where the shot is coming from exactly, even though he knows his opponent is right there.