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D&D 5E USING Variable spell-casting Ability Stats

GAMERSAVATAR

First Post
Just looking over the crazy heavy Charisma based spell casting classes kinda annoyed me, so I started thinking.
One nerfing Int, to only wizard (Ek) , kinda seems off especially being a old school D&D all editions... so since I'm starting a campaign latter next month i wanted to go through the classes race etc to see what needed adjustments. but i want to throw this out for other perspectives and maybe any oversight to this. First off I feel Warlock could/should be Int based, look at its skill choices for one and the suggested background, Im also considering giving the player the choice at creation between Charisma or Int. This can be applied to other classes to and would like to see discussions on this also. And Id adjust in the warlock in this example to having, int and wisdom save, instead of wisdom charisma.B-)
 
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Awesome Adam

First Post
Wizard studies the arcane to master it (INT)
Cleric has is fueled by faith (WIS)
Sorcerer's power is inherent and strength of character directs it (CHA)

The Warlock does not need to study the arcane. (INT)
The Warlock is not fueled by zelous faith. (WIS)
The Warlock's magic are fueled by what he can convince a supernatural being to lend him (CHA)

That being said, I don't think switching it to INT would break the game in any meaningful way, and would open up a multiclass possibility for Wizard.
 

I was thinking of making the casting stat key off of the Patron (Fey and Angelic gets Wisdom, Fiends get Charisma, Otherworldly horrors get Intelligence) and create custom spell lists and invocations for each (plus possibly alternate saving throws and skills if you take it at first level.)

I am not sure if it is worth the effort, but I can see why people might start looking in that direction. Making sure that the patrons are balanced with each other and with other classes for multiclassing purposes.
 

Illithidbix

Explorer
Easy to overlook but both the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster both use INT, so that is three spell casting classes that use INT, even if two are tertiary 1/3level progression subclass casters.
(Mage Hand Legerdemain is one of my favourite class abilities out there.)

Warlocks are an odd case as I can see arguments for them either Charisma or Intelligence as their spellcasting stat, whether you consider themselves scholars of forbidden knowledge that is indescribable and blasts the sanity of those who etc etc non-euclidean etc etc
Or as bargainers who dealt with inhuman powers and who won ... maybe.... or it seems like they got a good deal... at the moment...

Back in the day (2nd Edition AD&D) almost everything was Intelligence (arcane spellcasters) or Wisdom (Divine) based spell casting. Even Bards used INT as their spellcasting stat.

In 3E the core PHB introduced the idea of Bards and Sorcerers using charisma as a primary attribute.
Paladins used Wisdom instead of Charisma for actual spellcasting.
With a few odd abilities that Paladins and Clerics got that came off Charisma (turning undead and lay on hands).
 

GAMERSAVATAR

First Post
I was thinking of making the casting stat key off of the Patron (Fey and Angelic gets Wisdom, Fiends get Charisma, Otherworldly horrors get Intelligence) and create custom spell lists and invocations for each (plus possibly alternate saving throws and skills if you take it at first level.)

I am not sure if it is worth the effort, but I can see why people might start looking in that direction. Making sure that the patrons are balanced with each other and with other classes for multiclassing purposes.


Brilliant idea i love it and will use that as an option for players! Also slightly of topic but about warlocks, i kinda don't like the need to use a invocation for the subs, i dont like it when its kinda a forced "choice" Are you really not gonna take the tome,blade @5th,chain invocation...im thinking i may just include it at 3rd level (or5th) when they take it. Also kinda tough not to take agonizing blast, it kinda makes the class, again not a real choice. Don't like when u have to nerf your self for cool roleplaying abilities, not just about optimum build either its kinda bread and butter stuff. but i digress off topic abit...

Also pondering Sorcerer from rereading the fluff about them in class description, its your just born RAW MAGIC with it etc... Im imagining a Con. based option, doesn't help with skills but does con saves concentration( your born with it easier to not loss concentration?), its your vitality that allows the magic to run through you... i know Sorcerer has from what i recall always been charisma based...but not sure why strength of personality would better enable natural magic. I like this idea but there may be some pit falls I'm missing.

Another reason Im exploring Variant abilities, is to see what racial mixes this can open up. I understand any race can be any class, but be nice to use it natural racial nature to support its class.


Looking for more suggestions good stuff so far.
 
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Switching warlock over to Intelligence, as long as you want to go with the implied flavor adjustments, is probably the conceptually easiest switch to make of any full caster class. I don't think it's necessary, but if I were playing in your game and that was a house rule it wouldn't bother me one bit, and would make it easier to go with certain warlock concepts.
 

Also pondering Sorcerer from rereading the fluff about them in class description, its your just born RAW MAGIC with it etc... Im imagining a Con. based option, doesn't help with skills but does con saves concentration( your born with it easier to not loss concentration?), its your vitality that allows the magic to run through you... i know Sorcerer has from what i recall always been charisma based...but not sure why strength of personality would better enable natural magic. I like this idea but there may be some pit falls I'm missing.

They are a bit of the way there already since they pick up Con as a saving throw if they take Sorcerer at first level. I played around a bit trying to make a Con based sorcerer that burned hit points instead of Sorcery Points for metamagic type effects. It also had the ability to burn spell slots for hit points (like the Circle of Moon Druid in Combat Wildshape), but would lose Flexible casting so couldn't create slots with hit points. I haven't really got the math figured out to see how much the metamagic options should be worth in terms of hp loss. Obviously you can't do 1 to 1 for sorcery points, I think most of the options would have to be keyed off of slot level. You may have problems in campaigns where you have a lot of healing from either items or fellow casters.

That may not be what you are looking for. Sorcerers are the class that look like they should have a lot more flexibility than they actually do in concept. I am not quite sure how they ended up quite so narrow as they did. I find that anytime I start to design options for them I am tempted to rebuild them scratch from class. I would love to see what you come up with there if you can open up options without being clearly superior to the current Sorcerers.
 

Lanliss

Explorer
I like the Con for sorcerer, and mentioned it in a different thread somewhere. If anyone in my current campaign chooses a sorc at some point, I think I might simply switch the spell casting stat to Con, and see how that plays out. Would probably put heavy focus on Dex and Con, and not much else, but could be interesting.
 

airistal

Villager
Also pondering Sorcerer from rereading the fluff about them in class description, its your just born RAW MAGIC with it etc... Im imagining a Con. based option, doesn't help with skills but does con saves concentration( your born with it easier to not loss concentration?), its your vitality that allows the magic to run through you... i know Sorcerer has from what i recall always been charisma based...but not sure why strength of personality would better enable natural magic. I like this idea but there may be some pit falls I'm missing.
Charisma also covers the concept of knowing your self, understanding where one part of you ends and an other begins, and recognizing something as separate from your self (intellectually, physically, morally).
 


6ENow!

The Game Is Over
Also in case it was missed the Artificer is an INT caster.

Altogether you have:
Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin, Warlock (3.5 CHA)
Artificer, Wizard, AT, EK (2.17 INT)
Cleric, Druid, Ranger (2.5 WIS)

So, INT is only a bit under-represented. If you move Sorcerer to CON, CHA-casters drop to 2.5--on par with the others.
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
When I ran my Eberron campaign, I made the spellcasting stat switch for Clerics, Wizards and Dragonmarked Sorcerers based upon their domain / school / dragonmark. So all three classes had possible characters that could use INT, WIS, or CHA as their casting stat. And quite honestly it worked completely fine. So there's no reason I can see that you couldn't do something similar for warlocks (or any class for that matter.)

Abjuration: WIS
Conjuration: CHA
Divination: INT
Enchantment: CHA
Evocation: INT
Illusion: INT
Necromancy: WIS
Transmutation: CHA

Arcana Domain: INT
Forge Domain: INT
Grave Domain: WIS
Knowledge Domain: INT
Life Domain: WIS
Light Domain: WIS
Nature Domain: WIS
Order Domain: INT
Protection Domain: CHA
Tempest Domain: CHA
Trickery Domain: CHA
War Domain: WIS

House Cannith (Mark of Making): INT
House Deneith (Mark of Sentinel): WIS
House Ghallanda (Mark of Hospitality): CHA
House Jorasco (Mark of Healing): WIS
House Kundarak (Mark of Warding): INT
House Lyrandar (Mark of Storms): CHA
House Medani (Mark of Detection): INT
House Orien (Mark of Passage): INT
House Phiarlan (Mark of Shadow): CHA
House Sivis (Mark of Scribing): CHA
House Tharashk (Mark of Finding): WIS
House Thuranni (Mark of Shadow) CHA
House Vadalis (Mark of Handling): WIS
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
In a short campaign a few years back I used the extra ability scores from the DMG: Sanity and Honor and made the warlock cast with Sanity and Paladin with Honor. Sorcerer was also moved to CON casting. I took a few WIS saving throw spells and made them SAN or HON saving throws instead.

T'was a fun exercise!
 



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