Value of a copper piece

[prosfilaes]

I acknowledge upfront the difference between a medieval economy and a modern one, but I was surprised by how much a copper piece was in practical terms. A low-level laborer makes 10 cp per day, as per 3.5 DMG 105 or PF 159 or 2ed DMG xx. So relatively stable over the editions. That's 3650 cp a year. A US full-time minimum wage laborer makes 15,000 USD a year, so a cp is about 4 USDs. That doesn't tells us buying power, but it should equate roughly to how they feel in the hands of the poor. Imagine how it should feel to your character raised from the slums looking at a pile of copper... that is, like looking at a pile of dollar bills. Tossing out gp to beggars should be like handing out hundred dollar bills. A longsword is worth 15 gp, or $6,000; you leave it in a saddle bag, you should expect it to be gone when you get back. A "mere" +1 weapon is 2000 gp, or $800,000; you leave that lying around in a temple of a LG god, I'm not sure you should expect to find it there when you get back. PF character wealth by level says that each 3rd level character is carrying 3000 gp, or over a million USD. In some ways, our comparison has long broken down by that point, but any way you cut it, that's 55 years of an average man's salary. If a bunch of thugs manage to jump a party of four 3rd level characters and kill them, they can live the rest of their lives with all the alcohol, food and whores they want even after whatever the fence takes.

The reason I thought about this is that in my Ptolus campaign, there's going to be a curse during pregnancy that horribly mutates the child (i.e., makes them tiefling, aasimar, or any one of a number of planetouched races I have or will make). There's a magical charm, such that if it's worn during pregnancy, the child will be fine. But I wondered how much to make that charm to put it out of the reach of the lower classes but easily feasible for upper classes. Depending on how low and high, I'm thinking 5-50 gp.

This has larger ramifications. One argument is that D&D's economy is creaky, and don't shine a spotlight on it. On the other hand, maybe pressing it would be fun. As narrator or NPC, why, yes, you can buy a periapt of wisdom + 4, or you feed and clothe most of the poor in the city. In Ptolus, I suspect there's a lot of bodies that may or may not be returned to the surface of people who decided their life was worth any shot at a million dollars. Maybe they had to hock everything they owned to buy a long sword, but they were going to try it.

 

[S'mon]

Minimum wages were brought in as a 'fair wage' because in a market economy with a labour surplus and no welfare state, wages for unskilled labour will be much lower, at around subsistence level. So you cannot use any country's minimum wage as an equivalent to subsistence-level wage.

I use 1 cp = 50p, 1 sp = £5, 1 gp = £50, or about $75. Anywhere in the $50-$100 range gives reasonable results. The unskilled labourer requires a minimum 1 sp/day, or about £5. This is enough for food (mostly grains & vegetables), (untaxed) beer, and a very small surplus for clothing repair etc.

Edit: Wages in practice will often be higher, especially if there is no labour surplus. In the city a labourer might expect 5sp/day, and this may be enforced by a Guild or similar organisation. City costs may be higher too, though.

I remember reading an economic study of the Roman Empire, using bread costs as a way to equate Roman and modern wages. It looked like Roman paid labourers earned around $23/day using bread purchasing parity, about £15, or about 3 sp on my 1 sp = £5. Or you can keep the 1 sp = 1 day's wage, in which case 1 sp = $23. AFAIR medieval wages were generally a lot lower, though, except possibly in the cities.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Through much of Europe's history, most people rarely saw a coin of any type. If you worked, you got to eat. If you owned anything, it was probably either something you made or something you directly traded for something you made.

 

[prosfilaes]

Minimum wages were brought in as a 'fair wage' because in a market economy with a labour surplus and no welfare state, wages for unskilled labour will be much lower, at around subsistence level. So you cannot use any country's minimum wage as an equivalent to subsistence-level wage.

Still, I think the effect of someone carrying around a portable object equal to 55 times your annual wage is similar, no matter how you cut it.

I use 1 cp = 50p, 1 sp = £5, 1 gp = £50, or about $75. Anywhere in the $50-$100 range gives reasonable results.

Still, that makes a +1 sword a $150,000 item, a 3rd level character carries around $200,000 in items and money, and a periapt of wisdom + 4 is 1.2 million. Those are still numbers that are going to get a response out of people, especially the poor. Saying "I got 1.2 million on my last run..." is going to get people talking about how you should donate to the church or help out their charity or invest in their business.

 

[S'mon]

Still, that makes a +1 sword a $150,000 item, a 3rd level character carries around $200,000 in items and money, and a periapt of wisdom + 4 is 1.2 million. Those are still numbers that are going to get a response out of people, especially the poor. Saying "I got 1.2 million on my last run..." is going to get people talking about how you should donate to the church or help out their charity or invest in their business.

I agree, and the GM should be careful about having NPCs offer the PCs enormous sums of money for relatively trivial tasks. Pathfinder adventures are particularly bad about this I've noticed - "Go pick some herbs, I'll give you 100gp" or "Kill the beast for 1000gp" - at first level. 1000gp can get you a small army.

 

[SLupo]

True. That's why I reduced gold awards for the PCs drastically - which isn't much of a problem for my campaign, since it doesn't contain magic item shops and magic items are rare in general.

It's just a bit silly when a mayor offers 4 level 1 or 2 PCs 500 gp for killing an ogre and a few orcs, when he could pay 100 mercenaries to do the job.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

One of the problems with cross-temporal purchasing parity comparisons (or international purchasing parity comparisons) is that the relative costs of goods and services changes over time. Today, in the United States, any sort of labor is fairly expensive. Hiring an unskilled laborer at the federal minimum wage is roughly $15,000, as the original poster noted. Conversely, food and especially finished goods like clothes are extraordinarily cheap in a historical context. It would be possible to get subsistence food (including meat!) in the U.S. for under $5/day, and you can get a set of clothes for $20 or less (if you're willing to buy as cheap as you can). Housing is fairly expensive, though.

If you compare that to most of history, it was very common for food to be expensive relative to unskilled labor--unskilled laborers would be earning at or around a subsistence living, and often starving when a harvest was bad, a drought hit, etc. The same was true for clothes. But that meant that as soon as you got out of abject poverty, you could afford to hire a personal servant. My favorite example of this is a statement from Agatha Christie's autobiography that Brad DeLong paraphrased as "she mentioned how she never thought she would ever be wealthy enough to own a car – nor so poor that she wouldn’t have servants"--a statement that would be inconceivable by the end of her own lifetime, when cars became (relatively) cheap and servants became relatively expensive.

So the problem is that picking a basket of goods for purchasing price parity greatly skews the cost. Do you include a cook, maid, and private tutor for the children? Then people in the past look rich. Do you include only physical goods? Then people in the past look like paupers.

 

[amerigoV]

True. That's why I reduced gold awards for the PCs drastically - which isn't much of a problem for my campaign, since it doesn't contain magic item shops and magic items are rare in general.

It's just a bit silly when a mayor offers 4 level 1 or 2 PCs 500 gp for killing an ogre and a few orcs, when he could pay 100 mercenaries to do the job.

Or the peasant farmer gives the PCs a +1 sword that is just laying around gathering dust from when their old uncle Harry used to adventure. But then again, there is no EBAY to check the value before giving your "junk" away

 

[Loonook]

This is why Profession checks exist .

The lowest wage one earns for unskilled labor is 1 SP/day. For those who have a bit of skill at something this can increase dramatically. Half a profession check in GP for an average NPC (lvl 1 commoner, no special Int qualifications, ability to take 10) would come to 5-6 GP/week. 260-310GP/year is not a horrible wage... But then we look at costs.

A Soldier (a base Warrior 1) makes 6 GP/month just for standing about in the employ of a castle's guard. That same soldier may take cross ranks in Profession (Cobbler), gain a rank, and make an additional 5 GP/week. A soldier in the employ of someone probably has a billet and Meagre fare, and has the ability to sell his arms and armor when he changes sides as long as outfitting and the keeping of his outfit is in his contract (not horribly uncommon in the day). Most of his arms and armor are supplied by his master/mistress, and probably become swapped every couple of years so that can be factored in.

Perhaps he also gets the right to keep what he finds on raids to a certain percentage (also not uncommon). Figure 3 level appropriate encounters per year (bandits at the gates, a boar attacks the family dogs, reward posted etc.) and you have an extra 225 GP in pocket.

225 + 72 + 260 - 557

We have 46.41 GP/month coming in for our 1st level Warrior. Not a horrible wage, but by the rules of Upkeep (3x DMG p. 130) he's looking at 12 GP/mo for Poor upkeep of his own, reduced by his Meager supplied fare (7GP/mo overall). If he has a spouse with a skill they would clear around 60 GP/year, covering their own Meager upkeep, and cost an additional 84 GP/year for Poor upkeep. Factor in a kid or two at half upkeep and you're looking at an additional 144 GP/year for upkeep costs as Poor.

557 - 144 - 84 - 84 = 245 GP/year.

This figures a poor accommodation (possibly paying the liegelord for a couple of tick mattresses or a hovel near the household). They will need to purchase clothing (2 GP covers 5 outfits for each member of the family, his guard's uniform would be provided) and other sundries not covered by Upkeep. If he plays his cards right he could do pretty well for himself. If he invests in durable goods for his household he could have a couple of Lanterns, a dog for company on guard duty (and perhaps a whelp for the hovel), and other finery. This is of course not figuring in any taxation; if he and the missus were taxed a quarter of his income he would be looking at disposable income around 78.75GP while keeping his duties.

In four or so years of encounters our Sample Soldier gains a level, becoming more competent as a guard (doubling his current monthly rate)... he may even gain a bit more power among the rank and file. At this rate (72 GP/year) he may be able to afford some nicer things for the home. That brings the overall income to 317 GP/year. If he is taxed he would be bringing home 132.75 GP. He still couldn't move to a Common standing (1152 GP increase in overall cost! yikes!). He will be facing the same types of encounters with his same crew. He will continue his steady progression of leveling for 12 years. Over that time it is possible that his children have taken up skills and may supply additional income, additional children are present and non-contributing, or even that a mouth has been lost.

Overall you're looking at people who just move up slightly in station. Most adventurers, who sleep outdoors, can handle a monster, etc. don't think of the consequences. An unskilled laborer is going to be scrounging silver and in Self-Sufficient levels of upkeep their entire lives. A Smith, for example, could hire on 'apprentices' to do unskilled labor, provide food and board, and reap the profits... Just like in the real world .

In the math of D&D there are vague concepts of an economy. It actually hangs pretty well together. Adventurers sit in an echelon somewhere between high-powered merchant houses and sovereign stateholders. They draw their wealth based on their circumstances, and carry around large amounts of it in hard assets. Most PCs don't seem to believe in a lot of liquidity, reinvestment, or generally anything beyond 'getting a new shiny sword'. A lot of DMs I talk to follow that route, and provide large amounts of filthy, filthy lucre for the purpose.

Copper is worthwhile... When you're counting every penny.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Loonook]

Since we're discussing costs for living, let us go into what is required to live a Common Lifestyle Upkeep. A Common Lifestyle costs 540 GP/year to maintain per the same Upkeep chart. Common Lifestyle is one that has you living in a nice common inn, with 2 common and 1 Good meal (stews and fresh bread, for dinner what we would now consider a 'meal' of multiple small courses, meat, carbs (rice, potatoes, other starch), possible veggies, and wine/beer with any of the meals) , common accommodation (sharing a common room with multiple individuals, common wash and latrine), and around 5 GP/mo left for candles, oil, and basic comforts. This is of course if you are living out on your own; the Common Upkeep could also fit for those who own a small cottage in a nice location, about the rate of a standard one-family 'city living' accommodation.

With the additional bump between Poor and Common (392 GP/year :O) you're looking at some high expenses. Who can afford a 'common' lifestyle?

Our sample family would have to have an income of around 4.4GP/day to afford such a lavish lifestyle if you have 365 days in your calendar. That amounts to 44 TIMES the value of an unskilled laborer.

Our Soldier in the previous example has spent the last 8 years on the Watch, and become quite knowledgeable. Wanting to leave the role of an enforcer he has begun working on various civic projects, learning about politics, and spent some of his additional money on investing in himself. He spent the last year off the Watch apprenticing himself out as a hand to a Smith and being an auxiliary member called in on 'bigger issues'. He now has Profession (Cobbler) trained to 1 rank (2 SP) and has trained in Craft. At his next level he takes Expert, to show his focus on his new skills. He takes 2 ranks in Profession, 3 ranks in Craft (Metalworking), and 1 in Knowledge (Local) from his time away from the Guards.

Now our Soldier has a useful Craft. He isn't the best man of his age at the work, but for a soldier he is quite good at his work. He invests in a set of Masterwork Artisan Tools, knowing that having the fine tools of a master craftsman will assist his endeavors.

The Commander, knowing a soldier at the forge may assist his men, employs our Soldier to the forge. Paying full value he sets up the Soldier under the grizzly veteran Smith and his apprentice at the city's armory.

A fancy Smithy (2000GP) provides +2 to craft checks. With Aid Another checks the Smith and his Apprentice can assist our Soldier. He can produce 2 Longswords/week for the Watch under these conditions (13 + 2 (masterwork) +4 (AO) +2=21, 21*15 = 315 SP, 31.5 GP, 15 GP/longsword). 8 longswords/month (80 GP/month after cost of materials), then payment to our apprentice and smith (Smiths run 12GP/mo per Stronghold Builder's Guide, 3 GP/apprentice) you have improved your overall monthly rate to 65 GP.

780 GP/year... Now if you are still in the Auxiliary you're going to have a very nice chunk of change to spend.

Now you can see the way individuals in D&D can raise themselves up while still being broke. Craft and Profession checks are fantastic things. If our Soldier had started out as a Smith's Apprentice (Exp 1) he would be producing an even larger amount of money. Of course some of this cash would be spent on various tools and services, over time investing in your own Smithy, paying apprentices, purchasing and resale of equipment, etc...

If you can have a large team of Apprentices assisting you in the process (Aid Another is a wonderful tool) and your specific DM believes in the Quick Craft rules you can make your tools even more quickly, and provide even more income. Of course a Smith would gain experience slower than our Soldier would see combat. A Smith could be called to arms every year during his able-bodied period, gaining 1d2 encounters/year from age 16 to 40. If this were the case the Smith would be around 3rd-4th level by his 40th year (if he survived combat...). At 4th level your Smith (with Skill Focus: Craft (Weaponsmithing), with five apprentices [10+10+2+2+9] can Quick Craft (if allowed) craft (DC: 25, take ten skill: 33) [33*25] 825 sp worth of martial weapons/week. That is 22 longswords per month. 190 GP/month for our Smith at ~ age 40.

The Smith would be able to own/nearly own his own Fancy Smithy (if he needs to be independent), and probably be making additional money on Journeymen smiths who hawk their wares through him (5-10% gross of anything sold in his shop). He's making a fine lower class lifestyle, and with grown children out of the home (or working as Smiths themselves on cheaper equipment) he can establish a pretty decent lifestyle for himself.

Now back to 'Money offered for creatures is too high!'. An Ogre tramping about a town is a major drain on the town's economy. A small town has a max Expert who ranges in level from 3rd to 12th, a commoner of 4-16th level, and a 1-4 lvl aristocrat. These individuals produce a LOT of trade goods, have fields, collect taxes... And that same small town may have some PC characters available. However, it isn't a guarantee... And killing your own people can be expensive in goodwill costs. If the Smith above saves only 10% of his overall income for possible issues, and his fellows do the same... There's plenty of cash available for such sponsorship. The local adventurers would charge at least 30 GP/level/month, not including spellcasting costs, outfitting, etc.

To retain a 3rd level Fighter and a retinue of 4 3rd level guardsmen with leather armor, longswords, bows and arrows for a minimum month-long engagement we're talking (306 GP wages, 50 for leather, 75 for longswords, 375 gp for longbows, 10 GP for two quivers of arrows/ea, 10 gp for daggers, 15 gp for light wooden shields) comes out to 841 GP. Of course your small town doesn't HAVE 4 3rd level guardsmen (tops at 1 8th level, 2 4th, 4 2nd level)... Carriage of those warriors from another city, plus additional pay... But that is still below the average value of a CR 3 encounter (900 GP). It's gonna be much cheaper to get adventurers to do it for fool's wages and the pillage. Of course if your guys come with most of their equipment you're still paying 306 GP plus arrows, and probably be charged by the warriors for use of arms in other ways (shelter, food, etc.) that, over the month, will lead to more issues.

Again these numbers are rough for wages, based on charts found in the Stronghold Builder's Guide p. 42, DMG and PHB as listed.

So yes, it does seem like a large amount of money at first blush... but the costs of living, costs of equipping, etc. and MUCH higher when you start looking at it from a community level. As I said adventurers are upper-middle class citizens with no liquid assets.

Slainte,

-Loonook.