Variant Cleric with Sorcerer-like Casting

[The Shadow]

I've long thought the cleric should cast like a sorcerer rather than like a pseudo-wizard - their god granting them specific abilities as 'gifts'. It seems really easy to do in 5e, too:

Give the cleric a Spells Known column just like that for the sorcerer. Remove the Channel Divinity uses (but see below). They get their Domain spells as bonus known spells.

In place of Font of Magic at 2nd level they get Divine Favor: A pool of 'Favor points' instead of 'Sorcery points'.

Favor points can be traded in for spell slots and vice versa, just like the sorcerer. If you use such a slot to immediately cast a Domain spell, it's one point cheaper in Favor.

You can spend 2 Favor points to Channel Divinity.

When you attempt to invoke Divine Intervention, each Favor point you spend adds 2% to the chance of success. (Maybe this should be 5% instead?)

Favor points normally refresh after a long rest. However, if you've done something very pleasing to your deity since your last long rest (GM call), you can refresh half of them after a short rest. (No more than once per long rest.) Likewise, if you have failed to live up to the tenets of your deity, your Favor points might refresh sluggishly or not at all.

How's it look so far? Am I on the right track? I'm thinking that perhaps there should be a class feature to let you spend Favor points on a slot to cast spells from the *other* Domains of your deity, whether you know them or not. Not sure what level this should come at, though... and it's a bit rough on clerics whose deities only have one Domain!

It still remains to smooth out the class features to eliminate dead levels, and perhaps replace Turn Undead with something more suitable to all clerics. But I want some feedback on whether this is workable before I do that.

 

[Sadrik]

I've long thought the cleric should cast like a sorcerer rather than like a pseudo-wizard - their god granting them specific abilities as 'gifts'. It seems really easy to do in 5e, too:

I agree, me for a long time too.

Give the cleric a Spells Known column just like that for the sorcerer. Remove the Channel Divinity uses (but see below). They get their Domain spells as bonus known spells.

In place of Font of Magic at 2nd level they get Divine Favor: A pool of 'Favor points' instead of 'Sorcery points'.

Favor points can be traded in for spell slots and vice versa, just like the sorcerer. If you use such a slot to immediately cast a Domain spell, it's one point cheaper in Favor.

You can spend 2 Favor points to Channel Divinity.

When you attempt to invoke Divine Intervention, each Favor point you spend adds 2% to the chance of success. (Maybe this should be 5% instead?)

Favor points normally refresh after a long rest. However, if you've done something very pleasing to your deity since your last long rest (GM call), you can refresh half of them after a short rest. (No more than once per long rest.) Likewise, if you have failed to live up to the tenets of your deity, your Favor points might refresh sluggishly or not at all.

I think this is doable and perhaps preferable. The only thing is, what do you do with the sorcerer and the druid?

How's it look so far? Am I on the right track? I'm thinking that perhaps there should be a class feature to let you spend Favor points on a slot to cast spells from the *other* Domains of your deity, whether you know them or not. Not sure what level this should come at, though... and it's a bit rough on clerics whose deities only have one Domain!

It still remains to smooth out the class features to eliminate dead levels, and perhaps replace Turn Undead with something more suitable to all clerics. But I want some feedback on whether this is workable before I do that.

This is functional. On the one hand clerics lose access to many of their spells but on the other hand they gain a lot more tactical versatility. It is a good tradeoff.

And I agree about the turn undead feature for all clerics. This should have been optional at minimum. Some should have it but not all. I feel like bless spell is something that all clerics do. I bless you... perhaps that would be a better route?

 

[The Shadow]

I think this is doable and perhaps preferable. The only thing is, what do you do with the sorcerer and the druid?

I think the sorcerer can stay the way it is. They have a radically different spell list, they don't have to worry about pleasing a patron, they get metamagic, and they get a bloodline. IMO, that's distinctive enough.

The druid is a stickier wicket. 2e's approach was to make them a type of specialty priest - like the 5e Nature domain on steroids. I don't know how satisfying that would be. Wildshape would probably have to become a spell, or perhaps a Channel Divinity ability.

Or they could just stay the way they are... I would just as soon get rid of the idea that any class can select any spell from their list, though. Otherwise, the class gets steadily more powerful as new spells come out! My impression is that historical druids were much closer to what we would call 'arcane' magic anyway - maybe they're like wizards who don't need physical spellbooks. (But keep their existing spell list.)

I feel like bless spell is something that all clerics do. I bless you... perhaps that would be a better route?

Yes, there are a few cleric spells that all clerics should know: Hallow is another. I may use such spells as class abilities to replace Destroy Undead; like, "At level X, you learn spell Y, and it does not count against your number of known spells."

In the longer run, I'd like to tailor a cleric's list based on the deity's domains, much like 2e Spheres. But that's a good deal more work.

 

[The Shadow]

It just occurred to me that paladins should probably use a similar system to clerics, else multiclassing them will get a bit wonky.

Thing is, how many spells known and Favor points should they get?

Since paladins are half-casters, maybe that's the way to go - divide their paladin level by two and look up on the sorcerer chart what they get.

 

[Sadrik]

It just occurred to me that paladins should probably use a similar system to clerics, else multiclassing them will get a bit wonky.

Thing is, how many spells known and Favor points should they get?

Since paladins are half-casters, maybe that's the way to go - divide their paladin level by two and look up on the sorcerer chart what they get.

I think the paladin can get 2-20 points. Just like a cleric.if you are a 10/10 cleric/paladin then they would have 20 points not 15. Then key their features off of it. lay on hands could be 1 point heals 5HP. spend 1 point for divine sense.

That is a way to go with it anyway, I personally would not do it that way but it is a very good way to do it.

For me I want to divorce class features from classes in most cases and I would make the class features spells or add them to a list of selectable features and rarely make them a feat.

 

[Quickleaf]

I've long thought the cleric should cast like a sorcerer rather than like a pseudo-wizard - their god granting them specific abilities as 'gifts'. It seems really easy to do in 5e, too:

Hi Shadow! I agree that the Sorcerer style casting (limited spell list & flexible casting) is a better fit for a PC who has been divinely invested. And I think you're on the right track, mechanically, too.

In place of Font of Magic at 2nd level they get Divine Favor: A pool of 'Favor points' instead of 'Sorcery points'.

It all looks good, except that Channel Divinity is usually available once per short rest and Favor point recharge once per long rest. True, this is ameliorated at higher levels as you gain more Favor points, but it could have effects on the narrative, like a low-level cleric being unable to turn undead multiple times in a dungeon crawl or other situation where the adventuring day included many encounters.

Also, I really like how you tied regaining Favor points to gaining the deity's favor. It's something that just makes sense intuitively, and allows for expression of narrative in the rules without going the "stripped of all power" route (of past editions) or the "always invested even if you become a serial killer" route (of 4e).

It still remains to smooth out the class features to eliminate dead levels, and perhaps replace Turn Undead with something more suitable to all clerics. But I want some feedback on whether this is workable before I do that.

I wouldn't worry about a couple "dead levels", since your spells known and spell slots increase at those levels.

The levels where you'd need to change Turn Undead are Level 1 of course, Then 5, 8, 11, 14, and 17 when Destroy Undead kicks in. Basically Destroy Undead allows you to utterly destroy undead of a certain CR or less when you use Turn Undead, so it's a single scaling feature that boosts a use of Channel Div ity.

I think this is where we run into conflict of concept - just what a cleric (who has all these deities/domains) represents. Personally I'd be tempted to steal the paladin's Divine Sense and have it upgrade with more information about the outsider/(un)holy site as the cleric levels.

Another option would be to introduce a warlock-esque system of saintly Charisms, though that is perhaps better suited to a different conception of the class.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

nice take

I was thinking about another approach
a) to give cleric a more restricted spell list (more linked to their god)
b) to let them _change_ prepared spell only in temples or sacred place

 

[dracomilan]

In my campaign setting clerics have always worked this way, which I find more sensible.
They are spontaneous casters, each with a different set of powers/boons/taboos granted by the divine patron they serve. They have a limited number of known spells, and they have channel divinity powers only based on the divinity.
To replicate this behaviour but to make them different than divine sorcerers, in 5e they gather Piety Points that work more like experience points than sorcery points. They earn Piety only by accomplishing tasks taht are good for their god. They lose points if they behave in an unsavory way. As soon as they reach a new level in points, they gain new powers. They can also spend points (forever) to learn new spells and increase their change at a divine intervention.

BTW, druids are more 'wizards of the old religion' and work as written (just like Rangers), while paladines do not exist at all.

 

[Jester David]

I've long thought the cleric should cast like a sorcerer rather than like a pseudo-wizard - their god granting them specific abilities as 'gifts'. It seems really easy to do in 5e, too:

Give the cleric a Spells Known column just like that for the sorcerer. Remove the Channel Divinity uses (but see below). They get their Domain spells as bonus known spells.

Spontaneous casting theoretically works better for clerics, as you shouldn't prepare miracles in advance, but call for them as needed.

I've seen this used in a 3e game for that reason and to make the choice of domain matter more, as the spells granted from that would really differentiate clerics. However, there was a huge disadvantage: there's only a couple spells every sorcerer cleric would learn, mostly likely the combat ones that get used all the time: bless and cure wounds are all but given, with one wild card at 1st and 2nd level. Take all the go-to spells of a cleric and just make those permanent.
The usefulness of the cleric knowing all the spells is because of the niche spells the take because they're necessary the next day. Stuff like create food and water, lesser restoration, remove curse, speak with dead, etc. Raise dead is an awesome 5th level spell to have, but for the two 5th level spells your character will ever really learn, you're going to want to learn spells usable more often.
This really impacted out 3e game as the cleric opted not to learn

There's a few ways to work around this. As there are fewer "remove X" spells in 5e, there'll be more reason to take lesser restoration and greater restoration. Or the cleric might be able to use spells on its list but not known as rituals.