D&D 5E Variant Multiclassing (AD&D/Gygax Style), help with play balance

[dmhelp]

Okay, I normally run a no multiclassing game and this is my attempt at bringing back the 1st/2nd edition Fighter/Wizard where you advance in both classes at once instead of the 3rd edition style of the standard multiclassing rules in 5th edition (which is usually underwhelming for 10/10 splits). The downside in the original 1st edition rules was level limits. I've tentatively set the cap at level 16 (suggesting that theoretically a level 16 Fighter/Wizard is equivalent to a level 20 Wizard). You would lose out on the level 19 ASI. But compared to a 10/10 split you would be gaining 6th-8th level spells and the 2 class features at levels 11, 13, 14, and 15 (so potentially 8 features depending on the class). You would still be a level 20 character as far as hp, proficiency, and cantrip damage.

Multiclassing

• Choose two classes to be advanced in simultaneously (at character level 1 both classes are level 1), starting at character level 2 the class levels will be lower than the character level (e.g. a character level 16 Fighter/Wizard has level 12 Fighter and Wizard classes with corresponding class features)
• Character level determines hp, proficiency bonus, cantrip damage, and, if a double caster combination (e.g. Sorcerer/Warlock), spell slots per day (based on the most favorable class treating Warlocks as a full caster, see examples at end)
• Multiclass level determines class features, spells known/prepared, and, if a caster/non caster combination (e.g. Barbarian/Druid), spell slots per day
• Take the average dice size (rounded down to the closest even sided die) for hit points gained on each character level (e.g. a Fighter/Rogue would receive 1d8 sized hit dice instead of 1d9)
• Choose one of the classes to determine saving throws (e.g. a Fighter/Wizard could choose Str/Con or Int/Wis)
• Gain the lower number of skills from between the two classes and then choose from both lists (e.g. a Fighter/Rogue would gain 2 skills chosen from either the Fighter or Rogue lists)
• Gain the other proficiencies (armor, weapons, and tools) of both classes
• Barbarian/Monks may use either Unarmored Defense at any time
• No more than one ASI can be gained per level (i.e. a character level 5 multiclassed level 4 Fighter/Wizard has only acheived one ASI)
• Channel Divinity and Extra Attack are handled per standard multiclassing rules
• Warlock double casters treat Mystic Arcanum spells as additional spells known which require spell slots and can be upcast regularly

Double Caster Examples:
A character level 20 Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster gains spell slots as a level 20 third caster (Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster)
A character level 20 Eldritch Knight/Paladin gains spell slots as a level 20 half caster (Paladin or Ranger)
A character level 20 Cleric/Paladin gains spell slots as a level 20 full caster (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard)
A character level 20 Paladin/Warlock gains spell slots as a level 20 full caster (instead of pact magic progression)

Caster/Non Caster Examples:
A character level 20 Eldritch Knight/Assassin gains spell slots as a level 16 third caster
A character level 20 Four Elements Monk/Sorcerer gains spell slots as a level 16 full caster
A character level 20 Barbarian/Warlock gains spell slots as a level 16 Warlock (standard pact magic progression)

Character Level​	Multiclass Level​	Proficiency Bonus​
1​	1​	2​
2​	1​	2​
3​	2​	2​
4​	3​	2​
5​	4​	3​
6​	5​	3​
7​	5​	3​
8​	6​	3​
9​	7​	4​
10​	8​	4​
11​	9​	4​
12​	9​	4​
13​	10​	5​
14​	11​	5​
15​	12​	5​
16​	13​	5​
17​	13​	6​
18​	14​	6​
19​	15​	6​
20​	16​	6​

 

[Shiroiken]

Seems strong at lower levels, but the extra XP cost will cause them to fall behind pretty quickly. Given the HP is based on the half level equivalent, this might have survivability issues once the rest of the party is sitting at level 5-6. While I approve of a true gestalt multi-class concept, I think this needs a bit of work. Maybe give 3/4 XP, so they still fall behind, but not quite as badly.

 

[Ancalagon]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think that the way forward to get the "feel" of the old 2nd ed multiclassing is careful multiclassing 5e by doubling down on the subclasses. As you say, a level 5 fighter/five wizard is... underwhelming.

What you might want to try is to multiclass unevenly but compensate. For example, you could make a level 7 fighter/3 wizard but have the 7 levels of fighter be eldritch knight, and the 3 levels of wizards be something very useful to you - like a diviner or perhaps an abjurer? (an interesting alternative would be 3 levels of hexblade with the Tome pact). This would be a very strong "gish" build.

Alternatively, you would have a level 7 wizard level 3 fighter. In this case to compensate for the only 3 levels of fighter, makes the 7 levels of wizard a bladesigner, and the 3 levels of fighter be battlemaster. This would also be a vey interesting and strong build.

Fighter mage thief could be achieved by combining arcane trickster with bladesigner. I've seen it done once in a PBP game and the character was super effective.

 

[TheSword]

Sorcerer is a far far more effective combination with fighter than wizard.

The combination of quickened spells and higher caster slots that can be traded in for more sorcerer points is excellent. Quickened mirror image, fly, haste, or a nice fireball is very helpful. Shield, Absorb elements etc come in handy.

Not too mention throwing in two green flame blade attacks as a bonus action at a cost of 3 sorcery points that can easily be recovered.

This is all on top of a fighters normal attack routine, sentinel etc.

Of course ranger / sorcerer is even better. Potentially 3 attacks plus 2 green green flame blades at 8th level in a single round.

 

[dmhelp]

I initially had custom progression on the gitp forums but people recommended doing half xp instead.

Initially the level difference starts small. So when the multiclassed hits level 4 the single classed will not have hit 5 yet. But yes, a level 7 multiclassed would be a 9 single classed. But you could do cool things like level 7 assassin with level 7 way of the shadow (I let rogues sneak attack unarmed).

I don’t allow standard multiclassing. Since 3e it has led to batman builds (2 rogue 2 paladin for super saves with evasion). I prefer less of a difference between an optimized character and an unoptimized character. There is already a big difference between how you pick your feats.

I’m missing how the ranger beats out action surge in the sorcerer multiclass. But I think paladin sorc still beats out fighter sorc. I think as soon as you introduce multiclassing you introduce imbalance. There is no way to balance a standard 2 bard/2 sor/2 war/2 wiz with a 2 pal/6 valor bard. But I think there is less of a difference between an unoptimized combo like level 8 fig/wiz and a level 8 fig/sor. One way to lessen the difference would be to require that one of the classes be cle/fig/rog/wiz. In 1e this was a requirement (I guess they did allow druids in some limited combos and assassin for half orcs and illusionist for gnomes).

 

[Swarmkeeper]

While there is a bit of overlap with what you a proposing, this person handles some of the mechanics in a slightly different way which you might find helpful:

The HomeBrewery - Gestalt Characters

 

[dmhelp]

While there is a bit of overlap with what you a proposing, this person handles some of the mechanics in a slightly different way which you might find helpful:

The HomeBrewery - Gestalt Characters

Thanks for the link, there is significant overlap! I think how they used the lowest hp for level ups is fine since they are not having a level cap. Note that if you really were playing a level 20 game then letting the multiclass character get to level 20 is a disadvantage since the single classed character would gain 12 ASIs (or epic boons) in the time it took the multiclassed character to go from 15 to 20. So the single classed character would get a 30 casting stat and either a 30 dex or a 30 con.... That is why I think the level cap is a better solution.

The Gestalt Character gets to choose any 2 saves so they could choose 2 strong saves (dex, con, wis) and ignore the weak saves. I think it is better to pick one class so you get both a strong and a weak save.

I also don't like how the multiclass Rogue only gets 2 skills (assuming they aren't multiclassing with bard or ranger).

I updated the original post back to my original idea of using a conversion table for the level up rate instead of the half xp to allow for a little faster high level progression. And I increased the level cap to 16.

Do I need to restrict the class selection for game balance purposes (e.g. cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard only or one class must be one of the main four, etc.)?

 

[TwoSix]

It definitely strikes me as benefiting gish multiclasses over caster multiclasses. Fighter just combines so well with pretty much any caster for a minor level penalty.
For my taste, the penalty is too back loaded; only losing 1 level by level 9 is too little of a cost.

 

[aco175]

My campaigns never reach level 20, or 16 for that matter so most of the penalties being held off to later would never affect my players. I also would not give casters that are 4/4 the extra damage with cantrips since a straight class is 5th. This will lead to someone asking for a 2nd attack since everyone else is 5th level and I'm only a 4/4.

Ideally, I would just make new classes that combine powers I'm looking for in a multi-classed PC. This is not a discussion for here though.

 

[Quartz]

* A 4th level multiclass character counts as character level 5 in regards to cantrip damage.
**A 9th level multiclass character counts as character level 11 in regards to cantrip damage.
***A 14th level multiclass character counts as character level 17 in regards to cantrip damage.

I would keep cantrip damage at the base level. Likewise Proficiency Bonus.

BTW in 1e you used the average HP, not the higher HD.