D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Subtle Spell (a simple poll)

[Charlaquin]

No option that reflects my opinion (which is pretty much the same as @EzekielRaiden expressed), so I’m not going to vote.

 

[Parmandur]

Dread Counterspell pretty clearly short circuits tricks like Subtle Spell. Vecna knows.

 

[jsaving]

I wish I had more options. His Dread Counterspell will work if he knows the target is casting a spell.

Makes no difference whether he knows or not. The spell description says it works against a character he sees that is casting a spell, not a character he sees casting a spell.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Makes no difference whether he knows or not. The spell description says it works against a character he sees that is casting a spell, not a character he sees casting a spell.

I refuse to accept the idea that anyone can just say "boop, counterspelling you!" despite having ZERO evidence that, y'know, they're ACTUALLY casting!

Like...if we're talking about natural language, it's very clear that the natural language meaning of the phrase is that you have to be seeing someone cast a spell. That's necessary for counterspelling. Why would you counterspell someone who doesn't appear to be casting anything? It would be a waste of effort for no gain.

 

[Parmandur]

I refuse to accept the idea that anyone can just say "boop, counterspelling you!" despite having ZERO evidence that, y'know, they're ACTUALLY casting!

Like...if we're talking about natural language, it's very clear that the natural language meaning of the phrase is that you have to be seeing someone cast a spell. That's necessary for counterspelling. Why would you counterspell someone who doesn't appear to be casting anything? It would be a waste of effort for no gain.

The implication is that he knows...probably through thousands of years studying for udder magic, or something. The mechanics are clear and the narrative flows easily enough. It's scary because the player doesn't know how Vecna knows.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The implication is that he knows...probably through thousands of years studying for udder magic, or something. The mechanics are clear and the narrative flows easily enough. It's scary because the player doesn't know how Vecna knows.

Well, as I said above, in the context of the full adventure, where it IS said that Vecna has a persistent scry character sheet effect active, then of course he can always do that.

But the response above was claiming that just Dread Counterspell itself justifies being able to counter a sorcerer's Subtle Spell based on wording alone. I reject that argument, because the text of Dread Counterspell does not establish the ability to know whether a spellcaster is, in fact, casting a spell. When Dread Counterspell as written is combined with the absent information that Vecna is always able to detect spellcasting no matter what, then you get the unavoidable conclusion that Subtle Spell is worthless against him because he isn't reliant on witnessing verbal or somatic components to know that someone is casting.

That is, to be very clear: if we got a different creature later on that also had Dread Counterspell, with the same mechanics, then that feature alone would not justify being able to ignore Subtle Spell's suppression of the only obvious tells of (some) spells. Let's call it a Baleful Necromancer. Something like a fireball or magic missile, which clearly has an origin at a particular person, might permit the Baleful Necromancer to use Dread Counterspell; out of respect for the player's expenditure of resources, I would probably make some kind of roll (likely Investigation) to see if the Baleful Necromancer notices where the spell originated from. But something like a Divine Soul (or Boros Legionnaire) Sorcerer casting Subtle flame strike would be perfectly reasonable to not give any tells, since the spell pulls down fire from the sky onto the target--anyone could've cast it.

Vecna specifically has hacker powers that let him see the game rules even when he has no business knowing them. Those powers enable him to use Dread Counterspell even on a spell modified by Subtle Spell. A creature without Vecna's permanent scry character sheet effect does not have that benefit.

 

[Maxperson]

I refuse to accept the idea that anyone can just say "boop, counterspelling you!" despite having ZERO evidence that, y'know, they're ACTUALLY casting!

Like...if we're talking about natural language, it's very clear that the natural language meaning of the phrase is that you have to be seeing someone cast a spell. That's necessary for counterspelling. Why would you counterspell someone who doesn't appear to be casting anything? It would be a waste of effort for no gain.

He can see/sense the casting with a glance. The wording is different from counterspell as multiple english majors/professors have backed up. The way Dread Counterspell is worded, you only need to see the person, not the spell being cast.

 

[Maxperson]

But the response above was claiming that just Dread Counterspell itself justifies being able to counter a sorcerer's Subtle Spell based on wording alone. I reject that argument, because the text of Dread Counterspell does not establish the ability to know whether a spellcaster is, in fact, casting a spell. When Dread Counterspell as written is combined with the absent information that Vecna is always able to detect spellcasting no matter what, then you get the unavoidable conclusion that Subtle Spell is worthless against him because he isn't reliant on witnessing verbal or somatic components to know that someone is casting.

The wording of Dread Counterspell requires no detectable spellcasting in order to be used. The problem with it is that it provides no context or reasoning for why it can be used that way, so the DM has to supply it or rule against the wording as you would do and not allow it to work.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, as I said above, in the context of the full adventure, where it IS said that Vecna has a persistent scry character sheet effect active, then of course he can always do that.

But the response above was claiming that just Dread Counterspell itself justifies being able to counter a sorcerer's Subtle Spell based on wording alone. I reject that argument, because the text of Dread Counterspell does not establish the ability to know whether a spellcaster is, in fact, casting a spell. When Dread Counterspell as written is combined with the absent information that Vecna is always able to detect spellcasting no matter what, then you get the unavoidable conclusion that Subtle Spell is worthless against him because he isn't reliant on witnessing verbal or somatic components to know that someone is casting.

That is, to be very clear: if we got a different creature later on that also had Dread Counterspell, with the same mechanics, then that feature alone would not justify being able to ignore Subtle Spell's suppression of the only obvious tells of (some) spells. Let's call it a Baleful Necromancer. Something like a fireball or magic missile, which clearly has an origin at a particular person, might permit the Baleful Necromancer to use Dread Counterspell; out of respect for the player's expenditure of resources, I would probably make some kind of roll (likely Investigation) to see if the Baleful Necromancer notices where the spell originated from. But something like a Divine Soul (or Boros Legionnaire) Sorcerer casting Subtle flame strike would be perfectly reasonable to not give any tells, since the spell pulls down fire from the sky onto the target--anyone could've cast it.

Vecna specifically has hacker powers that let him see the game rules even when he has no business knowing them. Those powers enable him to use Dread Counterspell even on a spell modified by Subtle Spell. A creature without Vecna's permanent scry character sheet effect does not have that benefit.

No, Dread Counterspell as worded is clear that as far as the mechanics go Vecna does not need to see the casting, just the creature casting. This means when he sees, that he can act. If that means that he needs to know, then the flavor that flows from the mechanics suggests that he knows somehow. The RAW undercuts Subtle Spell entirely, and the Adventure confirms that is RAI.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, as I said above, in the context of the full adventure, where it IS said that Vecna has a persistent scry character sheet effect active, then of course he can always do that.

But the response above was claiming that just Dread Counterspell itself justifies being able to counter a sorcerer's Subtle Spell based on wording alone. I reject that argument, because the text of Dread Counterspell does not establish the ability to know whether a spellcaster is, in fact, casting a spell. When Dread Counterspell as written is combined with the absent information that Vecna is always able to detect spellcasting no matter what, then you get the unavoidable conclusion that Subtle Spell is worthless against him because he isn't reliant on witnessing verbal or somatic components to know that someone is casting.

That is, to be very clear: if we got a different creature later on that also had Dread Counterspell, with the same mechanics, then that feature alone would not justify being able to ignore Subtle Spell's suppression of the only obvious tells of (some) spells. Let's call it a Baleful Necromancer. Something like a fireball or magic missile, which clearly has an origin at a particular person, might permit the Baleful Necromancer to use Dread Counterspell; out of respect for the player's expenditure of resources, I would probably make some kind of roll (likely Investigation) to see if the Baleful Necromancer notices where the spell originated from. But something like a Divine Soul (or Boros Legionnaire) Sorcerer casting Subtle flame strike would be perfectly reasonable to not give any tells, since the spell pulls down fire from the sky onto the target--anyone could've cast it.

Vecna specifically has hacker powers that let him see the game rules even when he has no business knowing them. Those powers enable him to use Dread Counterspell even on a spell modified by Subtle Spell. A creature without Vecna's permanent scry character sheet effect does not have that benefit.

I’m not even convinced his scry character sheet ability tells him when someone is casting a spell. All it explicitly says is that he knows what spells you’re capable of casting and can identify them as you cast them without a check. I would certainly believe that it was the intent for this to mean he also knows when you cast a spell, even if it’s subtle. But it doesn’t actually say so clearly.