D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Subtle Spell (a simple poll)

[Parmandur]

I’m not even convinced his scry character sheet ability tells him when someone is casting a spell. All it explicitly says is that he knows what spells you’re capable of casting and can identify them as you cast them without a check. I would certainly believe that it was the intent for this to mean he also knows when you cast a spell, even if it’s subtle. But it doesn’t actually say so clearly.

I think this could definitely be spelled out better (no pun intended).

 

[Maxperson]

No, Dread Counterspell as worded is clear that Becna does not need to see the casting, just the creature casting. This means when he sees, that he can act. Of that means that he needs to know, then the flavor that flows from the mechanics suggests that he knows somehow. The RAW undercuts Subtle Spell entirely, and the Adventure confirms that is RAI.

No need to bring his wife into this. He's scary enough all by himself!

 

[Maxperson]

I’m not even convinced his scry character sheet ability tells him when someone is casting a spell. All it explicitly says is that he knows what spells you’re capable of casting and can identify them as you cast them without a check. I would certainly believe that it was the intent for this to mean he also knows when you cast a spell, even if it’s subtle. But it doesn’t actually say so clearly.

This is true, but if the guy can look at a Diviner and know how many uses of Portent are left, what those Portent numbers are, how many slots he has left for the day and which levels they are, and even know what spells that Diviner elected to memorize for the day, how could he not be capable of knowing what spell is being cast even if Subtle Spell is being used?

 

[Charlaquin]

This is true, but if the guy can look at a Diviner and know how many uses of Portent are left, what those Portent numbers are, how many slots he has left for the day and which levels they are, and even know what spells that Diviner elected to memorize for the day, how could he not be capable of knowing what spell is being cast even if Subtle Spell is being used?

I think you’re extrapolating a lot from “ascertain the capabilities of spellcasters and identify the spells they cast.”

 

[Maxperson]

I think you’re extrapolating a lot from “ascertain the capabilities of spellcasters and identify the spells they cast.”

Nothing I mentioned is not a capability of a spellcaster. I'm not extrapolating anything. It's literally what it says.

 

[Pauper]

Specifically, it says, “Vecna can ascertain the capabilities of spellcasters and identify the spells they cast without making an ability check.”

It should be noted that this, by itself, doesn't allow Vecna to identify every spell cast by enemy spell casters.

There are no rules for identifying spellcasting in the Players Handbook -- those rules only exist in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p.85:

"To [identify a spell], a character can use their reaction to identify a spell as it's being cast, or they can use an action on their turn to identify a spell by its effect after it is cast.
"If the character perceived the casting, the spell's effect, or both, the character can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check with the reaction or action."
Unless there's something else about Vecna's abilities in the adventure module that aren't being shared, the ability to identify spells without an ability check only absolves Vecna from that last sentence; he doesn't have to make an ability check to identify a spell.
Nothing in the text quoted from the adventure means that Vecna doesn't have to perceive the spellcasting, nor does it absolve Vecna from having to spend a reaction to identify the spell. It simply means that once he does so, he does not have to succeed at an ability check. This is explained in Xanathar's Guide this way: "This Intelligence (Arcana) check represents the fact that identifying a spell requires a quick mind and familiarity with the theory and practice of casting."

Because of this, I vote 'Dread Counterspell will NOT work against a spell cast with Subtle Spell."

--
Pauper

 

[gnarlygninja]

I can't really read his ability in a way that would let Subtle Spell prevent it, so I'd probably rule he could Dread Counterspell it.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

By RAW it is only the "Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell" language which makes counterspell generally impossible against subtle spells. In the absence of that language I see no RAW reason why Vecna's Dread Counterspell would be so limited.

In actual gameplay I would allow characters to use regular counterspell against any spell in range they have a reason to believe is being cast beyond the metagame knowledge that someone just said it was being cast, though I would be generally avoid doing this against a player using subtle spell, simply because of the opportunity costs and investment required to make a character able to do so should see some payoff.

But when players go up against a past-master of all wizardry so superlative he has ascended to godhood and become arguably the most infamous arch-villain of D&D they should expect their old tricks to be less reliable. I'd want Vecna to be able to (at least sometimes) counter subtle spells even if he was just using regular old counterspell. I'd want him to be able to as a DM and (unless I had just gotten subtle spell metamagic specifically for that fight) I'd want the same as a player.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Vecna didn't get where he is today by being fooled by cheap cheese.

 

[Maxperson]

It should be noted that this, by itself, doesn't allow Vecna to identify every spell cast by enemy spell casters.

There are no rules for identifying spellcasting in the Players Handbook -- those rules only exist in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p.85:

"To [identify a spell], a character can use their reaction to identify a spell as it's being cast, or they can use an action on their turn to identify a spell by its effect after it is cast.
"If the character perceived the casting, the spell's effect, or both, the character can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check with the reaction or action."
Unless there's something else about Vecna's abilities in the adventure module that aren't being shared, the ability to identify spells without an ability check only absolves Vecna from that last sentence; he doesn't have to make an ability check to identify a spell.
Nothing in the text quoted from the adventure means that Vecna doesn't have to perceive the spellcasting, nor does it absolve Vecna from having to spend a reaction to identify the spell. It simply means that once he does so, he does not have to succeed at an ability check. This is explained in Xanathar's Guide this way: "This Intelligence (Arcana) check represents the fact that identifying a spell requires a quick mind and familiarity with the theory and practice of casting."

Because of this, I vote 'Dread Counterspell will NOT work against a spell cast with Subtle Spell."

--
Pauper

That's cool and all, but Specific Beats General. Those general rules don't apply here. Vecna's specific rules do allow him to identify every spell, because they say so.