Vengeful Parry trick?

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I have a Sorcerer in the party I DM for who does stuff like this. Not too bad, a little strong, but not overpowering (since he is made of tinfoil and balsa wood).

The way I read this power is: (with the key points in [brackets])
1. Hit 'em
2. Then shift [up to] 1 square. (Since you can always shift less)
3. Then, slide them [Up to] 2 squares, but they must end [any slide] adjacent to you. (Because you can always forced-move some one less, and the way the sentence structure leads me to belive is that the 'end adjacent' clause applies to how any slide must end, not how the entire power must end.

Since working any other way should require the power to call out: "Hey, the rules work differently here" but it doesn't.

I would say this power is strong, but not obscenely so, as ranged attacks, long-reach attacks, and big area attacks can avoid the issue here. As long as the avenger ends their interrupt within the range/area of the power, it should still continue as normal, but if they end outside, the avenger should be safe, otherwise it means my frost-giants are all 'Mr. Fantastic' and should have grown '11-square-long stretchy-arms' for attacking my interrupt-teleporting sorcerer... Which seems wrong to me. Funny, but wrong.

 

[Journeymanmage]

Literally, it does not state that the foe must "end adjacent". That's a specific interpretation.

It states "slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you". Literally, the only real limitation here is if the target is slid, he must be adjacent. It's a limitation on the slide, not a limitation on the shift.

Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier damage. You shift 1 square
and then slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you.

So you're trying to say that >>"slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you."<< doesn't need to be adjacent when you finish? ... Really?

 

[DracoSuave]

So you're trying to say that >>"slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you."<< doesn't need to be adjacent when you finish? ... Really?

No, he's saying that slide itself says that you don't have to slide the opponent at all. If you slide the opponent at all, then the slide must end up adjacent to you. However, there are possible cases where the slide itself is not legal...

For example, if the enemy has a reach of 3, you slide one away, the enemy cannot be slid because they cannot be slid adjacent to you.

It's like if you were hit with a power that said that your attack this round must target the user of that power. You can actually chose 'I'll healing word myself then'. If you have the option not to perform something, than you do not need to obey restrictions on how that something is performed, obviously.


That said, chances are as a Unity Avenger, you'll want to slide the opponent into a better advantageous position anyways.

 

[Samir]

So you're trying to say that >>"slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you."<< doesn't need to be adjacent when you finish? ... Really?

This is actually specifically addressed on PHB2 p219.

MOVEMENT EFFECTS
Many powers allow you and your allies to move or allow you to move your enemies forcibly. If a power notes a distance that you or an ally moves (for example, “you shift 2 squares”), the character allowed to move can decide to move all, some, or none of that distance. Similarly, if a power forcibly moves an enemy (for example, “you push the target 3 squares”), you can decide to move the enemy all, some, or none of that distance.

If a power notes the destination for your or an ally’s move (for example, “a space adjacent to the target”), the character allowed to move decides either to move to that destination or not. You can’t move partway. Similarly, if a power specifies where you force an enemy to move, you decide either to move the enemy there or not.

So "slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you" means you can either slide the target (up to 2 squares) to a square adjacent to you, or choose not slide the target at all.

 

[Journeymanmage]

No, he's saying that slide itself says that you don't have to slide the opponent at all. If you slide the opponent at all, then the slide must end up adjacent to you. However, there are possible cases where the slide itself is not legal...

For example, if the enemy has a reach of 3, you slide one away, the enemy cannot be slid because they cannot be slid adjacent to you.

...

That said, chances are as a Unity Avenger, you'll want to slide the opponent into a better advantageous position anyways.

I did wonder about "what if you have something that 'boosts' your slide such that you can't then move target adjacent". But in your example and my 'boosted situation', if you can't slide them adjacent it's a situational issue, not a rules issue. If you can't move them adjacent, you can't move them adjacent ... so I could see just leaving the target where it was located.

This is actually specifically addressed on PHB2 p219.

And I believe that rule works fine most of the time, say Thunderwave. But in this case, the power states:

"You shift 1 square and then slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you. "

I see that as one complete ... "process" ... If you shift, you must attempt to move the target adjacent. It's a specific effect of the power that overrides the general rule of choosing how far you can move something. I'm not concerned about the distance moved, I'm looking at the "slide ... to a square adjacent to you." The power gives you the ability to move the target up to 2 spaces. If you can do it in 1, that's fine. If you can boost that to 4+ spaces and slide the target all the way around you, that's fine. It's the "adjacent to you" that I believe overrides the general rule. If you move away and choose not to slide him afterwords, the target is not adjacent per the requirement of the power.

If we're discussing whether or not this is a specific over general, I think it's a specific. If it is, then you would need to attempt to move the target adjacent. If it's not a specific over general, then you can leave the target behind by shifting away.

As a level 17 power and preferring to let the players of a game have more options, I'm fine with it working as people have stated. But I believe the power requires an attempt to move the target.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Samir has it right. By reading further down the page in the PHB, it is clear that no CS ruling is needed for this power.

If a power notes the destination for your or an ally’s move (for example, “a space adjacent to the target”), the character allowed to move decides either to move to that destination or not. You can’t move partway. Similarly, if a power specifies where you force an enemy to move, you decide either to move the enemy there or not.

 

[DreamChaser]

Samir has it right. By reading further down the page in the PHB, it is clear that no CS ruling is needed for this power.

Except the possible interpretation as to whether this is one movement effect (ie you choose to move you AND them) or two movement effects (ie you choose to move you and then you choose to move them).

If the former, you can shift yourself without also sliding them

If the latter, you can move yourself without also sliding them.

I'm inclined toward the former **because** there is (apparently) no way in the reading of these powers "shift 1 square and then slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you" to choose to not shift yourself and then shift the target.

thoughts?

DC

 

[DracoSuave]

Except the possible interpretation as to whether this is one movement effect (ie you choose to move you AND them) or two movement effects (ie you choose to move you and then you choose to move them).

If the former, you can shift yourself without also sliding them

If the latter, you can move yourself without also sliding them.

I'm inclined toward the former **because** there is (apparently) no way in the reading of these powers "shift 1 square and then slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you" to choose to not shift yourself and then shift the target.

thoughts?

DC

Shifting and sliding are two completely different things.

So no, they are not the same thing.

And yes, you -can- not shift yourself, then slide the target.

Do notice: There's no way the power lets you shift the target. You can only slide it.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Guys, I e-mailed CS about this, because I was really curious - and they said that you do have to slide to an adjacent square.

 

[DreamChaser]

Shifting and sliding are two completely different things.

So no, they are not the same thing.

And yes, you -can- not shift yourself, then slide the target.

Do notice: There's no way the power lets you shift the target. You can only slide it.

I am well aware that shift and slide are two different things...the thing I'm wondering: Is the second dependent on the first. The wording strongly implies that you cannot. Like a Hit: line effect. You shift ... AND THEN you slide. Thus, you cannot slide the target if you do not shift.

I suggest that the RAW is unclear but the RAI is that you bring your opponent along with you when you move. In the case of Vengeful Parry, this doesn't negate the attack but it could negate combat advantage from flanking or other benefits that the enemy would otherwise have on the attack. And as an avenger, you gain benefits from isolating your enemies so you end up in a better position next round.

DC