Vengeful Parry trick?

[DracoSuave]

Guys, I e-mailed CS about this, because I was really curious - and they said that you do have to slide to an adjacent square.

Which is funny, because the PHB says, explicitly, that you do not. You do not have to forcemove a foe the full number of squares given, and you do not have to forcemove a foe to a specified location. That covers both angles of this power's forcemove.

And you do not have to shift, as that's strictly voluntary. So, you have a shift and a forcemove, both of which can be not done.

 

[KarinsDad]

Except the possible interpretation as to whether this is one movement effect (ie you choose to move you AND them) or two movement effects (ie you choose to move you and then you choose to move them).

If the former, you can shift yourself without also sliding them

If the latter, you can move yourself without also sliding them.

This is no different than the word AND in many other sentences within powers. For example:

Covering Attack

Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an ally adjacent to the target can shift 2 squares.

The "and" does not change the normal shift (or slide) rules unless it explicitly states that it does. People are reading too much into this. There would need to be a sentence in the power similar to "in order to shift a square, the foe must be slid at least one square" for the shift / slide rules to be overwritten.


I'd be interested in the exact text of the CS reply.

 

[Journeymanmage]

Which is funny, because the PHB says, explicitly, that you do not. You do not have to forcemove a foe the full number of squares given, and you do not have to forcemove a foe to a specified location. That covers both angles of this power's forcemove.

And you do not have to shift, as that's strictly voluntary. So, you have a shift and a forcemove, both of which can be not done.

"It explicitly states that you do not have to forcemove the foe" - covered under General

The Power in question, explicitly states ... slide the target ... "to a square adjacent to you." - a instance of Specific

If you shift 0, you can still slide the target 0,1,2 as long as they end adjacent. But if you do shift away, then you need to attempt to slide the target up to 2 squares to a square adjacent to you.

It's still Specific over General.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Okay, here is the text, I'll paste in my question and then their reply:

"Customer (Ronald Hall) - 01/10/2010 10:19 AM
Okay, if you use Vengeful Parry to interrupt an attack, then move away, per
Vengefuls Parry description, do you *have* to slide the attacker adjacent
to you?

The Players Handbook says that with forced movement powers, you can choose
to move the target, choose not to move the target, or only move it part way."

and this was their reply:

"Response (Support Agent) - 01/10/2010 05:08 PM
Hello Ronald,

Yes, you must slide the target two squares to an adjacent to you."

I'm not very satisfied with this reply - its one of the shortest I've ever gotten from them. So I sent back a reply to their response, and I included the complete text from that section in the PH2, page 219/220:

"Many powers allow you and your allies to move or allow
you to move your enemies forcibly. If a power notes a
distance that you or an ally moves (for example, “you shift
2 squares”), the character allowed to move can decide
to move all, some, or none of that distance. Similarly, if a
power forcibly moves an enemy (for example, “you push
the target 3 squares”), you can decide to move the enemy
all, some, or none of that distance.
If a power notes the destination for your or an ally’s
move (for example, “a space adjacent to the target”), the
character allowed to move decides either to move to that
destination or not. You can’t move partway. Similarly, if a
power specifies where you force an enemy to move, you
decide either to move the enemy there or not."

I'm still awaiting their response.

 

[KarinsDad]

"Response (Support Agent) - 01/10/2010 05:08 PM
Hello Ronald,

Yes, you must slide the target two squares to an adjacent to you."

Sounds like the weekend crew.

 

[DracoSuave]

"It explicitly states that you do not have to forcemove the foe" - covered under General

The Power in question, explicitly states ... slide the target ... "to a square adjacent to you." - a instance of Specific

If a power notes the destination for your or an ally’s move (for example, “a space adjacent to the target”), the character allowed to move decides either to move to that destination or not. You can’t move partway. Similarly, if a power specifies where you force an enemy to move, you decide either to move the enemy there or not.

So which part of this power -specificly- beats this very general rule?

When you have a rule that describes the exact situation, it's not 'specific vs. general', it's apply the damn rule. This power doesn't contradict the above rule in any way, shape, or form.

If you shift 0, you can still slide the target 0,1,2 as long as they end adjacent. But if you do shift away, then you need to attempt to slide the target up to 2 squares to a square adjacent to you.

It's still Specific over General.

Using that logic, you cannot apply damage bonuses to powers, because the power's 'Specific' (no damage bonus is shown in the power) beats the damage bonus's 'General'... that makes no sense.

When you have a general rule without direct contradiction, you apply the damn rule.

 

[Samir]

In response to the "and" confusion:

The "and" is just a connection of clauses.

Do you think Downbeat of Wings requires you to push the target 2 squares to knock it prone (and not a square less)?

Does the Summon Arrowhawk have to shift exactly 3 squares to make its standard action attack?

Do you have to shift one square to make a MBA against a different creature with the miss line of Accept No Defeat?

Does Avenger's Demand require you to push the target exactly 2 squares to knock it prone?

etc etc.

 

[Jhaelen]

Well, maybe RAW it's unclear but I definitely know exactly how I'm ruling this in my game:
If you decide to shift you must also slide the foe to an adjacent square.

 

[Samir]

Well, maybe RAW it's unclear but I definitely know exactly how I'm ruling this in my game:
If you decide to shift you must also slide the foe to an adjacent square.

Although you can houserule it however you want to, the RAW is actually quite clear: you can choose whether or not to shift, and you can choose whether or not to slide, for this and every power involving shifts or forced movement.

The issue with houseruling something as major as forced movement is that you either have to choose to create a large number of inconsistencies (which player's don't like), or change all other powers involving forced movement to follow your houserule as well, which causes them to function in very unintuitive ways.

 

[Journeymanmage]

So which part of this power -specificly- beats this very general rule?

When you have a rule that describes the exact situation, it's not 'specific vs. general', it's apply the damn rule. This power doesn't contradict the above rule in any way, shape, or form. ... .

specifically - "to a square adjacent to you"

In this case, the power lets you slide the target 2 squares. Applying the general rule to this power leads us to ... you made slide the target 0, 1, 2 squares. But the power requires that at the end of the move the target end "adjacent to you" (specific).