Virtual Tabletop software?

[Sigurd]

Selling your own product

Restructuring the costs of a program simply because you don't want to pay that much is cheese. It is not that the DM version is more expensive. The player version is cheaper to give player only customers a break. They are reducing the function of a program to create a cheaper product and still have a market.

I never recommend the player only version because everyone should be able to DM. That's is how a table should work.


I am not going to tell anyone how to spend their money but neither am I going to tell a small software company how they can price their products. I find $40 a steal as a one time cost to play D&D online. Compare that to any online game or membership.

If you think less than a dollar a month for one year is too expensive to game online you are entitled to your opinion. In the end the price between the one time purchase and free is not that different so long as you use the software.

The far more important thing is that you are comfortable with the software and will you use it. Anything you use regularly will give you value, anything you don't use will be a waste.

By all means try maptool first because its free. Then try the demos and read the reviews for the other offerings. The idea works, and that is the more important message. If you want to game and there is nobody local there are certainly people online to game with.

I can't review the other offerings because I liked Fantasy Grounds so much I stayed with it and I use it regularly. I bought my product so, by now I might pay as much as fifteen cents an hour to play online. Of course if I make myself a coffee while I play that cost probably triples.

s

 

[OnlineDM]

I see that a lot of the people on this thread are big Fantasy Grounds proponents, and that's great. I've never used the program - I discovered MapTool and loved it and have never had any reason to want to look for anything else.

However, I want to be educated about the options. So, for those of you who know and love Fantasy Grounds and especially those who have also tried MapTool, can you tell me what the advantages of Fantasy Grounds are? From reading through the thread, I see mention of not having to do any macro programming as in MapTool (I personally LIKE doing some programming, but I know a lot of people don't). Are there other advantages? Does game hosting work better in Fantasy Grounds? Does it have built-in rules support for D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e or something like that? Better graphics? Easier UI?

Obviously it's a great program or else it wouldn't have so many enthusiastic supporters. What does Fantasy Grounds do that MapTool doesn't - or what does it do better?

Note that I don't care about cost here. If there were something far superior to MapTool, I wouldn't dismiss it just because MapTool is free. But MapTool is absolutely fantastic to me, and I find myself wondering what the paid options improve upon.

 

[Drahkar]

I see that a lot of the people on this thread are big Fantasy Grounds proponents, and that's great. I've never used the program - I discovered MapTool and loved it and have never had any reason to want to look for anything else.

However, I want to be educated about the options. So, for those of you who know and love Fantasy Grounds and especially those who have also tried MapTool, can you tell me what the advantages of Fantasy Grounds are? From reading through the thread, I see mention of not having to do any macro programming as in MapTool (I personally LIKE doing some programming, but I know a lot of people don't). Are there other advantages? Does game hosting work better in Fantasy Grounds? Does it have built-in rules support for D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e or something like that? Better graphics? Easier UI?

Obviously it's a great program or else it wouldn't have so many enthusiastic supporters. What does Fantasy Grounds do that MapTool doesn't - or what does it do better?

Note that I don't care about cost here. If there were something far superior to MapTool, I wouldn't dismiss it just because MapTool is free. But MapTool is absolutely fantastic to me, and I find myself wondering what the paid options improve upon.

The true power of FG2 in my opinion is the fact that its a true framework environment. If you were to put in a empty base.xml file for a ruleset, there would be nothing there except a desktop and some dice. Even the chat window is built within the framework. That fact gives you a massive amount of development potential for a ruleset. You can, quite literally, develop the interface to cover almost anything. The only limitations to what you can do is in regards to items that require changes to the framework itself. For example the loading and campaign creation screen.

Each type of resource within the application has a set collection of functions that get called by the framework at specific times. These default ones can then be used to expand out and create a wide variety of features within the environment. This is also a full Client/Server environment so added to this is the fact you don't have to ever worry about the state of an external server environment.

There are a lot of people who often comment about centralized chat and logins, VOIP, etc. But I'm glad that these are not the focus on the software. Instead they are developing a true programming framework that allows the person developing the ruleset to create a vast amount of functionality. And once those features and functions have been created within the Ruleset, anyone playing that ruleset can just used them. Not added setup required! Instead they can focus entirely on content, stories and Roleplaying. That is a -huge- deal when it comes to getting a game up and ready for your players.

 

[Xorne]

I see that a lot of the people on this thread are big Fantasy Grounds proponents, and that's great. I've never used the program - I discovered MapTool and loved it and have never had any reason to want to look for anything else.

However, I want to be educated about the options. So, for those of you who know and love Fantasy Grounds and especially those who have also tried MapTool, can you tell me what the advantages of Fantasy Grounds are? From reading through the thread, I see mention of not having to do any macro programming as in MapTool (I personally LIKE doing some programming, but I know a lot of people don't). Are there other advantages? Does game hosting work better in Fantasy Grounds? Does it have built-in rules support for D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e or something like that? Better graphics? Easier UI?

Obviously it's a great program or else it wouldn't have so many enthusiastic supporters. What does Fantasy Grounds do that MapTool doesn't - or what does it do better?

Note that I don't care about cost here. If there were something far superior to MapTool, I wouldn't dismiss it just because MapTool is free. But MapTool is absolutely fantastic to me, and I find myself wondering what the paid options improve upon.

I haven't used MapTools to play or run a game; over a year ago I set it up and played around with the map/token manipulation, and it seemed pretty cool. But what makes FG2 awesome for me?

- 3D animated dice
- ruleset specific character sheet for many systems
- DM Story/Map/Image/Encounter/NPC/Item Database
- Easy exporting to make the above adventure database modular
- Fantastic community support
- 3D animated dice (they deserve two mentions)

Now I don't know how well MapTools or any other VTT can do these things. I do know that I haven't really bothered to check, as I feel FG2 does these very, very well. When we bought our Full+Lite package for our gaming group of 7, I think it was $13 each in the end with the discount. I've spent $13 on a Hardee's value meal before.

I enjoy FG2 so much I made four tutorial videos to help new players get up and running (with a 4E D&D bias as that's what I play these days). They can be found at:
Revised 4E Video Tutorials - Fantasy Grounds Message Boards

But if you just want to see FG2, from a player & DM perspective (with some goofy voices narrating) then look at:
Fantasy Grounds II - live streaming video powered by Livestream

In the Video-On-Demand section pull up Example Encounter--gives a real good idea of how FG2 will work for you.

 

[Sigurd]

For me the appeal of Fantasy Grounds is that it is a pleasing simulation of pen and paper gaming.

From a players perspective you don't really need to know more than you would to use table top gaming.

Character Sheet holds your character
Dice are on the table: Click them with the left button of the mouse hold them over the chat window and let go. Everyone sees what you roll as a player but the DM can hide roles.
Tokens on the map: The DM shares a map with the players and the players can move their token on the map like a table top.

Any questions or interaction with the DM are just like face to face except that they are either typed (chat) or spoken online (Skype or whatever). You still want the game books and rules. The game publishers still are the source for the rules.


Simplicity and genuine simulation is the core of the way this program doesn't 'technofy' the gaming experience.

The combat tracker helps everyone by keeping things organized and automating things. The automation is generally a plus and has been implemented by people programming to make the game easier. Players and DMs don't need to know anything about the programming. Mostly it just works like Windows 'mostly works'.


For me the interface feels right and as a DM I feel like I'm hosting my players in a pleasant space. Maptools is a great product but, for me, it doesn't create the sense of a pleasant space to game in. I didn't get the same sense of focus on my player character. I appreciate the product. My crits are all personal, I thought it felt too harsh and everything was a step more effort that kept me from the game world\setting.

I play D20\Pathfinder pretty exclusively but there are player created rulesets for other games and they liked the program and the other game enough to make the ruleset. That is part of the pleasant space for me.


Thats what keeps me with FG - the pleasant space.

 

[Rienen]

- 3D animated dice (they deserve two mentions)
.

Heh, x2 here! It was implemented so well, WotC tried to get away with claiming they did the same for their VTT. (By stealing the image and mocking it up in promo materials).

I have, admittedly, only played around with Maptools. The major differences I saw was Maptools was much better at map/battle space manipulation, and FGII was much better at Character Sheet manipulation. As my playgroup is very role-play oriented, opposed to combat oriented groups, it just worked better. I think it boils down to what fits best to your groups playstyle.

Some VTT's are better at displaying and moving tokens, some provide for a richer "sit around the table with your character sheet" experience. FGII fit my group better. FGII has gotten better at combat (the combat tracker built into several rulesets has been a god-send) and I'm told others have gotten better at handling character sheets. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Griogre]

I see that a lot of the people on this thread are big Fantasy Grounds proponents, and that's great. I've never used the program - I discovered MapTool and loved it and have never had any reason to want to look for anything else.

However, I want to be educated about the options. So, for those of you who know and love Fantasy Grounds and especially those who have also tried MapTool, can you tell me what the advantages of Fantasy Grounds are? From reading through the thread, I see mention of not having to do any macro programming as in MapTool (I personally LIKE doing some programming, but I know a lot of people don't). Are there other advantages? Does game hosting work better in Fantasy Grounds? Does it have built-in rules support for D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e or something like that? Better graphics? Easier UI?

Obviously it's a great program or else it wouldn't have so many enthusiastic supporters. What does Fantasy Grounds do that MapTool doesn't - or what does it do better?

Note that I don't care about cost here. If there were something far superior to MapTool, I wouldn't dismiss it just because MapTool is free. But MapTool is absolutely fantastic to me, and I find myself wondering what the paid options improve upon.

So you know where I'm coming from I've now used FG for a couple of years now. However prior to using FG I used and researched a variety of VTTs. I first started playing online with a program that was just a battlemap that rolled dice. I next tried ScreenMonkey, Klooge, MapTools, Battlegrounds, Fantasy Grounds and what was then called OpenRPG. I've also tried a few others, Hecuva has a great list on his Battlegrounds site.

Excluding cost, where VTTs are different is what each one emphasizes. The major difference between MapTool and FG is their focus.

With a name like MapTool it should not be a surprise that MapTools' focus is on the map. It is very map-centric with a lot of development time focused on Fog Of War, LOS and other features that make the map shine. The last game I played on MapTool was an Aliens Vs. Marines Savage Worlds game and it was awesome. But it was awesome because it played to MapTools Strengths - Fog of War, Monsters not being displayed if they were not in Line of Sight, Limited range light sources etc. The downside was all the character where pregens and the character sheets were images.

Fantasy Grounds is character sheet-centric the emphasis is on the character sheet and most things revolve around the information on the character sheet. It is also has an unusual interface in that instead of the standard Window GUI, it simulates play around a table in face to face RPG. It has dice you throw, it has a battlemap that looks very much like a battlemap and tokens you can put on the battlemap. It has a very low learning curve because it so closely simulates the way you play around a table in a real game. People who play RPGs know what a character sheet is and how to fill out one for a game they play, they know what dice are for and they know how a battlemap works. As FG uses mostly a drag and drop or right click radial menu interface the learning curve is very low to any experienced RPGer.

Most VTTs shine in some area for me MapTools is a great VTT if you want your scenario to revolve around the map. If I ran a Space Hulk or other tactical combat game I would use MapTools or maybe Battlegrounds. On the other hand if your game revolves around the character sheet like many RPGs do, I prefer Fantasy Grounds. Part of this is a style issue about what you are trying to emphasize in a particular campaign.

I run several games and play in another online. My experience is that from the player's side of the screen any good VTT used by a GM who knows what he is doing is a good experience. One of the big differences between VTTs is on the other side of the screen. As a GM how much prep time is required to run your online game? Given the player experience is about the same with any decent VTT the one the GM wants is the one that has minimal prep time just for the software, and matches the style of the group and the campaign. For D&D 4E FG has minimal prep time. Not as good as 3.5 where all the resources were freely available but still the least once you have your resources.

Personally I think the top VTTs out there at the moment are FG, MapTools, Battlegrounds and what ever OpenRPG became. The software is important but so is the community that has built itself around that VTT. That is where you will often find replacement players or people to help you if you have a problem with the software.

 

[Sigurd]

My experience is that from the player's side of the screen any good VTT used by a GM who knows what he is doing is a good experience. One of the big differences between VTTs is on the other side of the screen. As a GM how much prep time is required to run your online game? Given the player experience is about the same with any decent VTT the one the GM wants is the one that has minimal prep time just for the software, and matches the style of the group and the campaign.

Personally I think the top VTTs out there at the moment are FG, MapTools, Battlegrounds and what ever OpenRPG became. The software is important but so is the community that has built itself around that VTT. That is where you will often find replacement players or people to help you if you have a problem with the software.

That's a really important thought. It's actually core to the development of VTTs as a whole. Whatever system will best make games easier to DM and help online communities grow is going to advance the hobby and create a place for itself. From the end users perspective they can only help each other.

 

[Aeolius]

If you're a Mac user...

To be fair, cross-platform support (without forcing Mac users to purchase Windows) is the first thing I look for, in a VTT. The second would be either a free player version, or a free trial version. Next It has to support 3.5e/d20. Ideally, it would support movement in three dimensions.

Granted, I DM a chat-based game via IRC, because VTTs seem to befuddle my players. I would need a VTT that had a bulletproof GUI, did not require running multiple programs or accessing CLIs, and had boatloads of support.

 

[Matchstick]

I see that a lot of the people on this thread are big Fantasy Grounds proponents, and that's great. I've never used the program - I discovered MapTool and loved it and have never had any reason to want to look for anything else.

However, I want to be educated about the options. So, for those of you who know and love Fantasy Grounds and especially those who have also tried MapTool, can you tell me what the advantages of Fantasy Grounds are? From reading through the thread, I see mention of not having to do any macro programming as in MapTool (I personally LIKE doing some programming, but I know a lot of people don't). Are there other advantages? Does game hosting work better in Fantasy Grounds? Does it have built-in rules support for D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e or something like that? Better graphics? Easier UI?

Obviously it's a great program or else it wouldn't have so many enthusiastic supporters. What does Fantasy Grounds do that MapTool doesn't - or what does it do better?

Note that I don't care about cost here. If there were something far superior to MapTool, I wouldn't dismiss it just because MapTool is free. But MapTool is absolutely fantastic to me, and I find myself wondering what the paid options improve upon.

Where Drahkar extols the virtues of the programming flexibility, I'm just the person that sits back and enjoys the results of the flexibility. I can't compare to Maptool, since I haven't used it.

When I started my SW adventures with FG our group was starting quite a lot from scratch. We were using FG for the first (serious) time and we were starting with a new ruleset (SW). About the only thing we had used before was Teamspeak! So much new stuff could have been a big issue, but it wasn't.

- We tested connections in FG days before the first session.
- I bought a module from Triple Ace and put it into my SW ruleset for FG.
- I created in FG pregen characters from Pinnacle and the module. Something like that is very fast, maybe ten minutes per character
- I went through and pre=created combat trackers for all the predicted combats in the module. When they arrive as part of the narrative all I need to do is drag the characters into it and share it. Very fast and easy.
- I added some pictures (cars, a mansion, a zeppelin).
- I made some maps with CC3 and DD3. I wish the module had come with some, but oh well.

No one had played with SW before, but once they chose their characters they could look at their Edges and stuff and click on them to see what they do (descriptions right out of the book). So could I if I needed to. If they needed to roll a Spirit check they just double clicked Spirit (or they could do it "manually" if that term applies) on the character sheet. Need to attack, double click the attack already on the sheet, same with damage. Wild die is automatic as well! Very cool!

The entire SW players guide is in Fantasy Grounds, providing a great reference for both myself and the players. It that guide that the character sheet links to, but the contents of the guide are not limited to what the character sheet links to, if that makes sense. They can look up combat tricks while waiting for their turn for example. The combat tracker actually deals out cards for initiative, just like in the SW rules!

I used the drawing tool to whip up a simple map when I needed to, with grid, on the fly. Maybe not as nice as Maptool, but no different than what I could have done on a battlemap I'm most definitely not an artist!

So for us FG made transitioning to online easy, because its technology worked well, and made the transition to an unfamiliar ruleset easy because of the rulesets integration into the product and automation within the product. The guys didn't have to buy the SWEX because it was all there (though it's only there when they're on my server).

There have been other cool things too, but I think it was the ease which FG allowed us to start all these things from scratch that really impressed me.