Vital Strike Questions

[Remathilis]

Check again. Spring attack also allows a single melee attack, not a Standard Action.

but is this "single melee attack" an "attack action"? I want to say yes personally, but I'd have allowed it to work with charges too.

My spring-attacking/vital strike rogue idea is dependent on it!

(Which makes me think; is Paizo going to have a "sage advice" like column in their publications/website?

 

[Twowolves]

Other than feedback in various errata-themed threads on their message boards (and updating their "official" errata) I don't think so.

BUT they seem to be very active in such threads, so it's not that bad. Better than waiting for the monthly Dragon to come out and hope your question is in there!

 

[pawsplay]

but is this "single melee attack" an "attack action"?

No, it is not. Look in the Combat section under Standard Actions, and you will see Attack listed. That's an attack action.

 

[Salthorae]

I would agree with Pawsplay having seen the link from Paizo staff about this one, RAW and RAI would appear to state that the "single melee attack" is not the same thing as a Single Attack Standard Action, it is something special specified in the feat (Spring Attack) or Special Attack (Charge).

I would also house rule as DM that you could use Vital Strike with either of those things because I don't really see it having that huge of an impact on a game, especially at higher levels. That is, if you are careful about what 3.5 sources you allow into your game (Book of Nine Swords I'm looking at you)...

 

[Remathilis]

No, it is not. Look in the Combat section under Standard Actions, and you will see Attack listed. That's an attack action.

Ok then, if that is true, what action is a spring attack itself? Is Spring attack (move, attack, move) a standard, attack, or move action? (I know its not full-round, swift, or free).

I'm beginning to think VS is a poorly worded feat; it seems to jumble too much with the system as is (can I make a VS attack but choose to sunder, thus getting the extra dice to my sunder damage?) Its slowly appearing Paizo wanted the feat to be a method of getting some of your extra damage from iterative attacks but still have a move action, but rather than make it a standard action for one attack, they went with combining it with the act of making an attack (the aforementioned "attack action" in the combat section) and muddy things up with "what else counts as an attack action" Bull.

 

[billd91]

This issue has come up before with respect to manyshot and shot on the run. Manyshot may have taken a standard action, but an action in which you make a single attack is a standard action (barring specific alternatives like charge and weapon-like spells). So it was pretty much by designer clarification that manyshot couldn't be used with shot on the run.

They clarified shot on the run by defining the use of the feat as a full-round action. Therefore, one single attack is all you get and no standard actions can be taken in its place.

It's unfortunate that instances of the wording problem remain with spring attack and surrounding the vital strikes.

 

[billd91]

I would agree with Pawsplay having seen the link from Paizo staff about this one, RAW and RAI would appear to state that the "single melee attack" is not the same thing as a Single Attack Standard Action, it is something special specified in the feat (Spring Attack) or Special Attack (Charge).

I would also house rule as DM that you could use Vital Strike with either of those things because I don't really see it having that huge of an impact on a game, especially at higher levels. That is, if you are careful about what 3.5 sources you allow into your game (Book of Nine Swords I'm looking at you)...

With respect to charge, imagine someone with the vital strike feats, mounted combat, spirited charge, wielding a lance and rolling a crit. The extra dice might be minor compared to the multiple damage from the lance charge critical, but something to think about.

That said, I don't think vital strike should be an issue with either spring attack or shot on the run (though with shot on the run being part of a full-round action, one wonders whether vital strike is supposed to be usable with it or not).

 

[Remathilis]

This issue has come up before with respect to manyshot and shot on the run. Manyshot may have taken a standard action, but an action in which you make a single attack is a standard action (barring specific alternatives like charge and weapon-like spells). So it was pretty much by designer clarification that manyshot couldn't be used with shot on the run.

They clarified shot on the run by defining the use of the feat as a full-round action. Therefore, one single attack is all you get and no standard actions can be taken in its place.

It's unfortunate that instances of the wording problem remain with spring attack and surrounding the vital strikes.

Sigh. I figured as much. So no vital strike+spring attack cheese.

Saves me a couple of feats though for stunning critical though!

 

[pawsplay]

Ok then, if that is true, what action is a spring attack itself? Is Spring attack (move, attack, move) a standard, attack, or move action? (I know its not full-round, swift, or free).

Full round. It appears that this important phrase was omitted from the feat description. The similarly worded Shot on the Run is a full-round action.

I'm beginning to think VS is a poorly worded feat; it seems to jumble too much with the system as is (can I make a VS attack but choose to sunder, thus getting the extra dice to my sunder damage?) Its slowly appearing Paizo wanted the feat to be a method of getting some of your extra damage from iterative attacks but still have a move action, but rather than make it a standard action for one attack, they went with combining it with the act of making an attack (the aforementioned "attack action" in the combat section) and muddy things up with "what else counts as an attack action" Bull.

It could have been clearer, yes.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Sigh. I figured as much. So no vital strike+spring attack cheese.

Saves me a couple of feats though for stunning critical though!

At least until the use is made clear via an FAQ or clarification. I'm pretty sure it will come out as a useable combination in the near-future. The wording is so poor that its easy to go either way right now. For the most part, everyone that plays picks their own usage for this atm because of this.