D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?

[Hatmatter]

So when WOTC tried to jam truenamer in the 5e wizard, the fans rejected it. Not because they didn't want the truenamer, they didn't want it in the wizard. So that idea is now gone.

Perhaps it is gone. But, I recall Jeremy Crawford saying a few times in DragonTalk interviews that no idea is gone and that the Wizards of the Coast designers love to go back to ideas that were not embraced and revise them until the team finds the correct iteration that is embraced. The Rune Scribe becoming the Rune Knight is but one of many examples. So, we very well may see another attempt at the Truenamer.

It is for this reason that I expect, at some point down the road, perhaps in a few years, we will get a Psionicist class. Until that point, I think the subclasses of the Psi Warrior, Soulknife, and Abberant Sorcerer are great ways to manifest psionics in a way where people can use them form day #1 with minimal impingement due to having to learn a new system.

Now, that being said, I realize that was not your main point, so I do not want to represent it as if it was. You are, if I understand you correctly, objecting to how the emphasis on subclass design is impinging on creativity and expansion of the game because the subclasses are too connected to the classes. Point taken.

 

[Stalker0]

The last couple surveys wotc put out asked product health questions like if d&d and 5e itself are going strong on the way out or whatever... those aren't the kind of questions that get asked when this strategy isn't seeing diminishing returns even if the returns are still great for now.

You always want to know what your customers perception of the game, whether they think things are in a good place or not. Why wouldn't you want to know that?

Though I admit I am not a customer survey specialist (and I assume you are not either), so really we are just both spouting two completely uninformed opinions about what benefit a question has to a company.

 

[Hatmatter]

Regarding Truenamers, the idea is NOT gone. WotC revived the librarian artificer concept as the Scribe Wizard. They revived the Circle of Twilight Druid as the Twilight Domain Cleric. The Giant Soul Sorcerer as the Rune Knight Fighter. The Scout Fighter (which itself was a revival of the earlier UA of a non-magical Ranger) as the Scout Rogue. The Revived Rogue got split into the Phantom Rogue and the Revived ancestry in VRGtRL. The Cosmic Sorcerer was never even playtested as UA, but was a very popular 4e subclass. It's found a home recently as the Circle of Stars Druid. Same thing with the Warden -> it's the Oath of the Ancients Paladin, now. If a concept didn't work in a particular iteration of UA, it doesn't mean it's gone for good, it means it goes back into the idea pool to return potentially in a different way.

Regarding psionic classes, no one has said it's not coming. It's just that Aberrant Mind Sorcerer serves the need right now. If there's a greater need for a full Psionic class, it'll happen. Maybe in Planescape. Maybe in Dark Sun. Maybe in the next Xanathars/Tasha's.

Wow, Marandahir, I should have read further down the thread before writing my response to Minigiant. You hit all the points I made, even mentioning the possibility of a Psionicist in the future (which I have written about in other threads here on Enworld). I think you have captured the ethos and approach of Wizards of the Coach in this well-written post.

 

[Minigiant]

They already gave us an arcane half-caster. It's just that the other half is rogue, not half-fighter. It's called the Artificer, and there are 3 different products you can buy for the full class in, so go buy one of them if you want to play it. At least two official subclasses for Artificer are front-lines martial characters too, so you'll just have to get used to the concept of magic swordsman being either 1/3 caster Eldritch Knight, fullcasters Hexblade or Bladesinger or Valor/Swords Bards, or 1/2 caster Battle Smith or Armorer (or Forge Adept, if you pick up the creator's-fanon DMs Guild release Exploring Eberron). What more do you want for a Magic Knight? You've got at least 7 different ways of making a Swordmage, and I've probably forgotten a few.



Regarding Truenamers, the idea is NOT gone. WotC revived the librarian artificer concept as the Scribe Wizard. They revived the Circle of Twilight Druid as the Twilight Domain Cleric. The Giant Soul Sorcerer as the Rune Knight Fighter. The Scout Fighter (which itself was a revival of the earlier UA of a non-magical Ranger) as the Scout Rogue. The Revived Rogue got split into the Phantom Rogue and the Revived ancestry in VRGtRL. The Cosmic Sorcerer was never even playtested as UA, but was a very popular 4e subclass. It's found a home recently as the Circle of Stars Druid. Same thing with the Warden -> it's the Oath of the Ancients Paladin, now. If a concept didn't work in a particular iteration of UA, it doesn't mean it's gone for good, it means it goes back into the idea pool to return potentially in a different way.



Regarding awakened animals, the WotC devs specifically mentioned on their podcast - AND IN THE TEXT OF THE BOOK - that the 3 NPC classes were designed in such a way that they could very well be animals. That Warrior? It could be your loyal pooch. And on the podcast, they talked about playing as one of those characters full time, since it's a stripped down and streamlined character that can still function well enough in a party setting. So yes, go ahead and play that awakened animal; you have the rules options to do so.

Or of course you could just play a Druid who is a reverse Animorph and is an awakened hawk but can shapeshift into a human. Or you could play a Beast Master Ranger and have fun playing both your human and your pooch.

Regarding psionic classes, no one has said it's not coming. It's just that Aberrant Mind Sorcerer serves the need right now. If there's a greater need for a full Psionic class, it'll happen. Maybe in Planescape. Maybe in Dark Sun. Maybe in the next Xanathars/Tasha's.

A lot of it is not want many fans want. The fluff doesn't match. The crunch doesn't match. A Scribe Wizard is not a Truenamer. A Volar Bard isn't a Swordmage. A dog warrior is not Sir Barkley Eldritch Knight and his permanent magic fang teeth and +2 dog armor.

Many have let current happiness blind them of the less happy future out of complacency. It may take a while for some. The conservative game design will wane in popularity. In 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? I dunno.

But the discussion is on the insights based on Color and Tasha. My speculation is continuance of the light game design. I feel we only got lineages due to real world problems. They look like the exception over the rule. I don't see 5.5e coming. I don't see revision of the PHB, MM, & DMG coming.

 

[Parmandur]

They won't even give use an arcane half caster class.

Look in Tasha's or Rising from the Last War: the Artificer is the Arcane half-caster.

 

[Marandahir]

A lot of it is not want many fans want. The fluff doesn't match. The crunch doesn't match. A Scribe Wizard is not a Truenamer. A Volar Bard isn't a Swordmage. A dog warrior is not Sir Barkley Eldritch Knight and his permanent magic fang teeth and +2 dog armor.

Many have let current happiness blind them of the less happy future out of complacency. It may take a while for some. The conservative game design will wane in popularity. In 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? I dunno.

But the discussion is on the insights based on Color and Tasha. My speculation is continuance of the light game design. I feel we only got lineages due to real world problems. They look like the exception over the rule. I don't see 5.5e coming. I don't see revision of the PHB, MM, & DMG coming.

I did not suggest that a Scribe Wizard is a Truenamer; it's the revision of the Archivist Artificer, not the Truenamer Wizard. The Truenamer is back in the primordial ooze of pre-alpha testing. Or it's on the scrap pile. But other examples I raised showed how UA from very early in the edition reemerged last year in Tasha's. Druid Circle of Twilight was in a 2016 UA. It finally made its way to publishing as a Cleric Domain in 2020.

I also said that the Valor Bard serves as a martial arcanist. Of course it's not the Int-based Swordmage from 4e. But luckily we have 3+ other options for that: a Wizard Option, multiple Fighter Options, multiple Artificer options. If you don't like those, you can lean into sword and sorcery with the Hexblade or the Bard, or multiclass yourself, or do an arcane trickster, or an arcane archer, there's lots of options.

You may not like the mechanics involved in delivering this character flavour. Not everyone is going to love everything. the Oath of the Ancients Paladin does not perfectly represent my Warden character from 4e. But it captures the general storytelling of the character archetype. And fiddling with other dials since released - such as various feats or supernatural gifts - can fill in those gaps.

And if it doesn't? Congratulations, the DMs Guild exists. I've bought numerous high quality books off of there. Both Ed Greenwood and Keith Baker publish original books expanding on their campaign settings via the platform. The 5e releases are much more numerous than the products directly published by WotC. In fact, by spreading out the WotC published books, it gives more room for high quality (and middlingly quality) homebrew splat to have a chance to rise and shine on platforms like the DMs Guild. Every WotC adventure, every new campaign setting, every new rules books, all of these provide a jumping-off point for third-parties to create expansive content on theme in the wings of the stage set by WotC's books. Other options include En5ider (a lot of great content here, it's been filling the gaps in my game since 2015), Tribality's self-published material, the 5e homebrew subreddit, etc.

My point is that 5e is slowly but surely encapsulating the concepts and archetypes of the game. This is a long game process and they have a lot more ideas to play with. And that fact stands in contrast with the idea that they're running out of content to publish. Meanwhile, if you're eager for more content, or content that reflects specifically the idea you want (say Swordmage or Psionicist), there are dozens of iterations on these on the DMs Guild. Go and peruse!

 

[Parmandur]

A lot of it is not want many fans want. The fluff doesn't match. The crunch doesn't match. A Scribe Wizard is not a Truenamer. A Volar Bard isn't a Swordmage. A dog warrior is not Sir Barkley Eldritch Knight and his permanent magic fang teeth and +2 dog armor.

Many have let current happiness blind them of the less happy future out of complacency. It may take a while for some. The conservative game design will wane in popularity. In 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? I dunno.

But the discussion is on the insights based on Color and Tasha. My speculation is continuance of the light game design. I feel we only got lineages due to real world problems. They look like the exception over the rule. I don't see 5.5e coming. I don't see revision of the PHB, MM, & DMG coming.

You overestimate people's desire for change considerably. Monopoly goes through rules editions, but is largely the same game it was when it came out. Ridiculously popular. Moreso with Cgess.

At some point, WotC has to stop overturning the apple art periodically just for the sake change. Seems they figured that with 5E.

 

[Parmandur]

I did not suggest that a Scribe Wizard is a Truenamer; it's the revision of the Archivist Artificer, not the Truenamer Wizard. The Truenamer is back in the primordial ooze of pre-alpha testing. Or it's on the scrap pile. But other examples I raised showed how UA from very early in the edition reemerged last year in Tasha's. Druid Circle of Twilight was in a 2016 UA. It finally made its way to publishing as a Cleric Domain in 2020.

I also said that the Valor Bard serves as a martial arcanist. Of course it's not the Int-based Swordmage from 4e. But luckily we have 3+ other options for that: a Wizard Option, multiple Fighter Options, multiple Artificer options. If you don't like those, you can lean into sword and sorcery with the Hexblade or the Bard, or multiclass yourself, or do an arcane trickster, or an arcane archer, there's lots of options.

You may not like the mechanics involved in delivering this character flavour. Not everyone is going to love everything. the Oath of the Ancients Paladin does not perfectly represent my Warden character from 4e. But it captures the general storytelling of the character archetype. And fiddling with other dials since released - such as various feats or supernatural gifts - can fill in those gaps.

And if it doesn't? Congratulations, the DMs Guild exists. I've bought numerous high quality books off of there. Both Ed Greenwood and Keith Baker publish original books expanding on their campaign settings via the platform. The 5e releases are much more numerous than the products directly published by WotC. In fact, by spreading out the WotC published books, it gives more room for high quality (and middlingly quality) homebrew splat to have a chance to rise and shine on platforms like the DMs Guild. Every WotC adventure, every new campaign setting, every new rules books, all of these provide a jumping-off point for third-parties to create expansive content on theme in the wings of the stage set by WotC's books.

My point is that 5e is slowly but surely encapsulating the concepts and archetypes of the game. This is a long game process and they have a lot more ideas to play with. And that fact stands in contrast with the idea that they're running out of content to publish. Meanwhile, if you're eager for more content, or content that reflects specifically the idea you want (say Swordmage or Psionicist), there are dozens of iterations on these on the DMs Guild. Go and peruse!

The mere existence and promotion of the DMsGuild is a huge gamechanger alone. WotC doesn't need to be on the forefront of testing ideas, but they can still benefit from experimentation by others.

 

[Hatmatter]

At some point, WotC has to stop overturning the apple art periodically just for the sake change. Seems they figured that with 5E.

Here is someone speaking my language. Yes! I concur! A game can develop without having to periodically being taken apart and rebuilt and then years being dedicated to printing new editions of books that I already have different versions of on my shelf.

 

[Sithlord]

Here is someone speaking my language. Yes! I concur! A game can develop without having to periodically being taken apart and rebuilt and then years being dedicated to printing new editions of books that I already have different versions of on my shelf.

Oh cmon. Just one more copy of temple of elemental evil and against the giants. How about another in search of the unknown. I want to see the whole B series