D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?

So you admit you don't know if you're just part of the vocal minority?
I admit that I don't know the percentages.

However many people in this discussion said WOTC doesn't and/or shouldn't act on the desires on a small minority. So them constantly trying t fix the ranger and openly doing so proves the percentage could not have been that small.

I think one of the issue WOTC has been forced to deal with in 5e is that D&D is so diverse that you have minority options that are also large percentages. So people asking for X isn't the majority but there are so many of them that ignoring them is extremely risky. Add in the huge number of newcomers and you can get a delayed reaction as it take newcomers longer to become comfortable being in the greater community and expressing opinions.
 

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I honestly think they could confidently release at least Zendikar, New Phyrexia/Mirrordin, Kaladesh, and Alara. That's 8 years of gameplay since they don't release a Magic setting every year.
If they want to go the way of TSR they could do that. Only Zendikar would definitely sell well, and 5E would have massively overstayed its welcome by then, and the systems it uses, which looked relatively modern in a slight retro way, in 2014, by 2029 will be looking positively ancient. You'd definitely see a steady decline in sales over that period if you were spamming MtG settings like that and not innovating D&D. You might even see a scenario like that of 2E, where people actually started to move on to other RPGs, because D&D seemed so stuck in the mud. I think it's less likely now but not impossible, and if that happens, getting them back with a 6E after they've tasted various forbidden fruit re: mechanics and general game approaches will be considerably harder.
Yet still WotC's numbers showed there was overwhelming satisfaction with thebRangee...even if less overwhelming than other Classes. That's the issue, they are trying to please a majority, not the vocal customers. That takes time and consideration.
I don't dispute the facts, but I would suggest this "majoritarian" approach has failed them. Further, it looks like an early-5E approach. You'll notice the time between UA and stuff going in a product has, by and large shortened considerably, and we're seeing a hell of a lot less feedback from WotC on our playtesting. This, I would suggest, is because they've become more confident, and their UAs are now to catch outliers (i.e. in the sense that something that sounded good to them sounds really bad) and correct balance issues they didn't previously notice, rather than to match the old majoritarian 70% approval magic number.

The old approach cost them the Mystic, which had they just ignored the 70% approval thing would inevitably have been accepted in within 1-2 years (it's just the way D&D goes), outside some hardcore minority who are probably still made about Artificers right now. And I suspect it cost them other stuff which would actually have worked fine.

You can have "satisfaction" with a class and it can still be total crap, frankly, mechanically. I mean, if you read D&D boards it's obvious about 75% of D&D player don't understand mechanics beyond the most completely superficial level. That's not a huge problem. You don't need to understand D&D in depth to play or run it, or even apply simple house rules. But I would say certainly the majority of D&D players are outright incapable of understanding mechanical issues in any depth, let alone ones which might seem more subtle, like with the Ranger. There's also the oppose change crew, who would rather have a mediocre or bad ranger than a new ranger - a small but present minority.

This isn't an issue unique to D&D. People are broadly satisfied with all sorts of dreadful systems, it's something I see in my work. When you replace a system, though, people can be shocked and overjoyed, they didn't even know something could work this well.

Back on people not understanding, you could see this very often when people attempted to discuss UAs on the reddit especially (the level of technical competence and understanding is significantly higher here but we still see people who are really grasping what is going on mechanically wading into nuanced conversations - ones re: the Monk are particularly hilarious because the same people wade in with the same irrelevant points and are shocked when they're largely ignored), because it was the blind leading the blind, frankly. Entire thread with dozens of comments and hundreds of upvotes featured people who'd made basic mathematical or rules errors, yet everyone was going along with them.

Hence my suggestion that majoritarian approaches are of limited utility unless all you're trying to find out if something is so incredibly bad it needs to be changed right now. If you want to actually find out if something needs changed, you need to ask the people who are saying it's bad and see if they have any kind of rational argument at all. Often they won't. But sometimes they will.

And I don't think current-WotC is going with this groupthink approach anymore. I don't think we'd have seen Tashas or half the changes in it if they were. People were already "satisfied" with virtually everything Tashas changes or adds to. But they're more satisfied now, I'm sure.

This whole thing goes back to 5E being an "apology edition". 5E was born because bad decisions around 4E split the community and lost WotC a fair fraction of their playerbase. 5E was an attempt to win them back and provide a more future-proof game, but it was very consciously trying not to offend (unlike 4E). That's why the approval threshold for material was both public, and so extremely high. WotC was afraid. WotC wanted you to know it was only doing what you asked it to! Not any crazy 4E stuff!

But given persistent year-on-year growth from NEW players who utterly dwarf the old players in numbers, that is no longer a real problem. WotC has become confident. Theros. Tashas. Candlekeep. Ravenloft. These are the books of a confident company. Not a company nearly-groveling for approval. The recent UAs have been bold too. I don't think Rabbit and Owl people would have been seen as okay to even put in a UA in 2015. In 2021? People are excited by that.

So I don't think this "please a majority" thing is as simple as it once was. With an audience so large, even if a book isn't for everyone, it's likely selling more copies than a book that was for everyone did in 2015.
 

Breaking homebrew because WotC released a playtested version that does the concept that the homebrew was designed to cover BETTER and more BALANCED is not a failure. It's a success. The homebrew served its purpose in the same way that UA serves a purpose: as a carry over until the final design can be more tinkered with. And if you still prefer your homebrew? Congratulations, you're not playing a video game with set logic; you can always houserule around it.
You misunderstand. Fixing 5e for wotc by creating the modular hacks they insist are enabled by the system's simplicity doesn't break when wotc releases something to cover that. Actually doing that runs into problems when wotc adds to something that interacts with the new module in unforeseeable ways. for the gm who does the significant work to make it. That butterfly effect gets magnified because 5e lacks any real hooks where these new modules can link onto & the new module needs to create hooks somewhere else the creator hopes is future proof.
 

Actually the fact that they repeated did very open UAs on the ranger proves a large percentage were not satisfied but they had trouble satisfying a large percentage without editing the PHB.

No one outside of WOTC really know if it was a majority or not.
They gave the numbers at a certain point, it was something over 70% satisfaction with the Ranger. Which was substantially lower than the other Classes, but left them with wanting to not rock the boat for the majority of players. Theybeanted to raise the rate up to match the other Classes, not start from scrarch.
 

I admit that I don't know the percentages.

However many people in this discussion said WOTC doesn't and/or shouldn't act on the desires on a small minority. So them constantly trying t fix the ranger and openly doing so proves the percentage could not have been that small.

I think one of the issue WOTC has been forced to deal with in 5e is that D&D is so diverse that you have minority options that are also large percentages. So people asking for X isn't the majority but there are so many of them that ignoring them is extremely risky. Add in the huge number of newcomers and you can get a delayed reaction as it take newcomers longer to become comfortable being in the greater community and expressing opinions.
But that's precisely the line WotC has been walking: focusing on the aggregate, but working to not leave the minority behind.
 

If they want to go the way of TSR they could do that. Only Zendikar would definitely sell well, and 5E would have massively overstayed its welcome by then, and the systems it uses, which looked relatively modern in a slight retro way, in 2014, by 2029 will be looking positively ancient. You'd definitely see a steady decline in sales over that period if you were spamming MtG settings like that and not innovating D&D. You might even see a scenario like that of 2E, where people actually started to move on to other RPGs, because D&D seemed so stuck in the mud. I think it's less likely now but not impossible, and if that happens, getting them back with a 6E after they've tasted various forbidden fruit re: mechanics and general game approaches will be considerably harder.

I don't dispute the facts, but I would suggest this "majoritarian" approach has failed them. Further, it looks like an early-5E approach. You'll notice the time between UA and stuff going in a product has, by and large shortened considerably, and we're seeing a hell of a lot less feedback from WotC on our playtesting. This, I would suggest, is because they've become more confident, and their UAs are now to catch outliers (i.e. in the sense that something that sounded good to them sounds really bad) and correct balance issues they didn't previously notice, rather than to match the old majoritarian 70% approval magic number.

The old approach cost them the Mystic, which had they just ignored the 70% approval thing would inevitably have been accepted in within 1-2 years (it's just the way D&D goes), outside some hardcore minority who are probably still made about Artificers right now. And I suspect it cost them other stuff which would actually have worked fine.

You can have "satisfaction" with a class and it can still be total crap, frankly, mechanically. I mean, if you read D&D boards it's obvious about 75% of D&D player don't understand mechanics beyond the most completely superficial level. That's not a huge problem. You don't need to understand D&D in depth to play or run it, or even apply simple house rules. But I would say certainly the majority of D&D players are outright incapable of understanding mechanical issues in any depth, let alone ones which might seem more subtle, like with the Ranger. There's also the oppose change crew, who would rather have a mediocre or bad ranger than a new ranger - a small but present minority.

This isn't an issue unique to D&D. People are broadly satisfied with all sorts of dreadful systems, it's something I see in my work. When you replace a system, though, people can be shocked and overjoyed, they didn't even know something could work this well.

Back on people not understanding, you could see this very often when people attempted to discuss UAs on the reddit especially (the level of technical competence and understanding is significantly higher here but we still see people who are really grasping what is going on mechanically wading into nuanced conversations - ones re: the Monk are particularly hilarious because the same people wade in with the same irrelevant points and are shocked when they're largely ignored), because it was the blind leading the blind, frankly. Entire thread with dozens of comments and hundreds of upvotes featured people who'd made basic mathematical or rules errors, yet everyone was going along with them.

Hence my suggestion that majoritarian approaches are of limited utility unless all you're trying to find out if something is so incredibly bad it needs to be changed right now. If you want to actually find out if something needs changed, you need to ask the people who are saying it's bad and see if they have any kind of rational argument at all. Often they won't. But sometimes they will.

And I don't think current-WotC is going with this groupthink approach anymore. I don't think we'd have seen Tashas or half the changes in it if they were. People were already "satisfied" with virtually everything Tashas changes or adds to. But they're more satisfied now, I'm sure.

This whole thing goes back to 5E being an "apology edition". 5E was born because bad decisions around 4E split the community and lost WotC a fair fraction of their playerbase. 5E was an attempt to win them back and provide a more future-proof game, but it was very consciously trying not to offend (unlike 4E). That's why the approval threshold for material was both public, and so extremely high. WotC was afraid. WotC wanted you to know it was only doing what you asked it to! Not any crazy 4E stuff!

But given persistent year-on-year growth from NEW players who utterly dwarf the old players in numbers, that is no longer a real problem. WotC has become confident. Theros. Tashas. Candlekeep. Ravenloft. These are the books of a confident company. Not a company nearly-groveling for approval. The recent UAs have been bold too. I don't think Rabbit and Owl people would have been seen as okay to even put in a UA in 2015. In 2021? People are excited by that.

So I don't think this "please a majority" thing is as simple as it once was. With an audience so large, even if a book isn't for everyone, it's likely selling more copies than a book that was for everyone did in 2015.
They lowered their approval threshold between Xanathar's and Tasha's, by a certain percentage threshold. They are definitely letting their hair down a bit.
 

I'm not as optimistic on how many years you can due that without a noticeable dip in sales. I don't think there really are that many big name, old school settings and archetypes left that WOTC can tap into that with bring the same level of buzz Ravnica or Ravenloft brought. I just don't see the back log that brings that level of hype. Especially if it's true that more than half of players are under 35.

There's only so many MTG settings you can do before you get yawns. And many of the old settings that themes that aren't popular anymore unless you add to them (and anger old fans who are needed to hype them up with clicks).

It's not like Games Workshop were you can dangle codexes like carrots for 15 years because you have a bajillion factions in the lore
I am not seeing the basis of your assumption, Minigiant, that only republishing former settings will lead to an increase in book sales. Wizards of the Coast was increasingly selling more books even as it was publishing new adventures in Avernus as much as it saw continued increase in sales by revising an older setting with Iceland Dale, and even that was a new adventure, at least.

Sure, Ray Winninger said we are going to see some classic settings (Spelljammer, Spelljammer, Spelljammer :D ), but he also said that there will be new settings, most likely Magic the Gathering inspired settings, and of course we will continue to see more storylines published as adventure paths. We have every reason to believe that there will be new material in the publication schedule. Perhaps it will, as you write, "get yawns," but I hope not.

I do understand that you are predicting that we are about to see a drop in sales. The only thing that I can contribute is that I do not think that will happen soon and we can all gather here a year, or two years, or three years from now and compare notes. But, apart from your belief that you think Wizards have some how boxed themselves in through their initial design assumptions about D&D 5th edition and are about to see diminished sales, I really do not understand your reasons for this belief. The reasons appear to shift from posting to posting. And, truly, that is ok. There is no need to be a master rhetorician to post here...but I do not follow the underlying premise undergirding your belief that sales are about to diminish.

Anyway, keep rolling, everyone. I am enjoying your contributions!
 

Do you honestly believe any setting book is going to come out for 5E, from now onwards, without an equivalent to Supernatural Gifts?

Because I don't.
I do not have a crystal ball and I do not know what Wizards is planning to publish. But, if they ever did publish a Dragonlance setting or a Greyhawk setting of some kind or even a Spelljammer book :) I would be surprised if those books included an equivalent to supernatural gifts. As Marandahir has written, I think the gifts in the Theros and Ravenlofts books have strong narrative and campaign setting reasons to exist. Marandahir's prediction that something equivalent (or even more potent) for Dark Sun also makes sense. But, I actually do honestly believe that there are setting books that will come out in the future that will not contain the equivalent to Supernatural Gifts.

But, we'll see. It's all good.
 

This is the crux of the matter. They took us shouts of Ranger bad seriously. But when looking at the aggregate data, found that we're a vocal minority. There's an issue of Ranger balance, but it was more of a subtle thing, to be addressed with optional changes playtested over a long period of time, rather than an immediate hard left shift when the first outcries on EnWorld and GitP came out in force.
Well said. And, what came out in Tasha's was better than the early Unearthed Arcana attempts at Ranger revision (and was able to be presented in the context of new options for all of the classes, which is quite nice)...so the methodical approach that tested role-players' response before publication turned out to be wise.
 

They gave the numbers at a certain point, it was something over 70% satisfaction with the Ranger. Which was substantially lower than the other Classes, but left them with wanting to not rock the boat for the majority of players. Theybeanted to raise the rate up to match the other Classes, not start from scrarch.

They didn't want to errata the PHB. That's it. The Ranger satisfaction level was lowest. And people were vocally upset with the beastmater. Positivity toward the beastmaster was hard to find.

However they wanted find a solution, especially the beastmaster, that didn't rewrite or override the PHB. And they didn't print anything until they found it. So in Tasha's they just printed "overpowered" beasts designed to boost the class feature and gave the option of using druid foci.

I am not seeing the basis of your assumption, Minigiant, that only republishing former settings will lead to an increase in book sales. Wizards of the Coast was increasingly selling more books even as it was publishing new adventures in Avernus as much as it saw continued increase in sales by revising an older setting with Iceland Dale, and even that was a new adventure, at least.

Sure, Ray Winninger said we are going to see some classic settings (Spelljammer, Spelljammer, Spelljammer :D ), but he also said that there will be new settings, most likely Magic the Gathering inspired settings, and of course we will continue to see more storylines published as adventure paths. We have every reason to believe that there will be new material in the publication schedule. Perhaps it will, as you write, "get yawns," but I hope not.

I do understand that you are predicting that we are about to see a drop in sales. The only thing that I can contribute is that I do not think that will happen soon and we can all gather here a year, or two years, or three years from now and compare notes. But, apart from your belief that you think Wizards have some how boxed themselves in through their initial design assumptions about D&D 5th edition and are about to see diminished sales, I really do not understand your reasons for this belief. The reasons appear to shift from posting to posting. And, truly, that is ok. There is no need to be a master rhetorician to post here...but I do not follow the underlying premise undergirding your belief that sales are about to diminish.

Anyway, keep rolling, everyone. I am enjoying your contributions!
It's simple.

I didn't see WOTC changing their design stance due to a change in design philosophy. I feel real world events changed how Tasha handled races and lineages and not a new game design philosophy. Most of the rest of Tasha's uses WOTC's old game design ideas to me.

It's still "Don't override, overshadow, or replace what's in the DMG, MM, and PHB by much." 5e barely ventured into the crazy or new like earlier editions. And from my experience, playing it safe doesn't sustain hype.

To me, 5e is still too safe. Especially wth a huge chunk of its fans being new and coming from different media and fantasy backgrounds.
 

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