D&D 5E (2014) Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?


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So some thoughts on current subclasses who could be 6e themes with multiple optional class requirements. I'm going to loop them by current class and then list possible classes for each; if I don't list something it's because I think it's really a class-specific theme (or true subclass):
  • Artificer
    • Artillerist -> Artificer or Ranger
    • Battle Smith -> Artificer or Fighter
    • Forge Adept -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Domain?)
  • Barbarian
    • Battlerager -> Barbarian or Fighter
    • Ancestral Guardian -> Barbarian or Ranger
    • Zealot -> Barbarian or Paladin
    • Beast -> Barbarian or Druid
    • Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (LIKE IT ALREADY IS, NOMINALLY)
  • Bard
    • Swords -> Bard or Fighter
    • Whispers -> Bard or Rogue
    • Creation -> Artificer or Bard
    • Spirits -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (combine with Grave Domain)
    • Lorehold -> See UA
    • Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add Artificer
  • Cleric
    • This is one where I don't think the subclasses work for any other class. I think you'd need a complete restructuring of the Cleric, and I'm not sure that's helpful for the Cleric (Domains are a wonderful idea for Clerics).
    • I do think that we currently have War and Order Domains that are Paladin-lite, Arcana Domain that is like a Mystic Theurge, and Nature Domain which is like a Druid-lite. There might be some room to allow Clerics to take themes working with some of those other classes instead of having a built in subclasses, but I do like the elegance of the current system for the Cleric specifically.
    • Note that if I list Cleric anywhere it's assuming this concept.
    • Some options though:
      • Knowledge Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Wizard
      • Death Domain -> Cleric, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard (combine with The Undead Patron and School of Necromancy)
      • Arcana Domain -> Cleric or Wizard
      • Forge Domain -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Adept)
      • Grave Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid (combine with College of Spirits)
      • Twilight Domain -> Cleric or Druid
      • Peace Domain -> Bard or Cleric
  • Druid
    • Dreams -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid
    • Shepherd -> Druid or Ranger
    • Spores -> Druid, Sorcerer, or Warlock
    • Stars -> Druid or Sorcerer (remember 4e Cosmic Sorcerer?)
    • Prismari -> See UA
    • Witherbloom -> See UA
  • Fighter
    • Eldritch Knight -> Artificer or Fighter
    • Battle Master -> Fighter, Monk, Paladin, or Ranger (replaces Kensei and also replaces Martial Superiority feats and fighting styles)
    • Purple Dragon Knight -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Oath of the Crown)
    • Arcane Archer -> Artificer, Fighter, or Ranger
    • Cavalier -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger
    • Samurai -> Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Paladin
    • Echo Knight -> Fighter or Ranger
    • Rune Knight -> Artificer, Fighter, or Sorcerer
    • Psi Warrior -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with GOO Bladelock)
  • Monk
    • Four Elements -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer
    • Shadow -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Assassin)
    • Long Death -> Monk or Warlock
    • Sun Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Divine Soul)
    • Kensei -> Merge with Battle Master and superiority dice feats; Fighter, Monk Paladin, or Ranger
    • Astral Self -> Monk, Sorcerer, or Wizard
    • Ascendant Dragon -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Draconic Bloodline)
  • Paladin
    • The Ancients -> Barbarian, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Warlock
      • Probably split into multiple concepts, a more Fey and a more Primal version
    • Crown -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Purple Dragon Knight)
    • Glory -> Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin
    • Watchers -> Artificer, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Wizard (think Eldeen Reaches Orc Druid guardians of the natural world, or else Mordenkainen (Greyhawk) or Karla (Lodoss)'s guardianship of the Grey Middle against the tipping of any scales.
  • Ranger
    • Beast Master -> Druid or Ranger
    • Gloom Stalker -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock
    • Monster Slayer -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger
    • Fey Wanderer -> Bard or Ranger
    • Swarmkeeper -> Druid or Ranger
  • Rogue
    • Arcane Trickster -> Artificer, Bard, or Rogue
    • Assassin -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Way of Shadow)
    • Swashbuckler -> Bard, Fighter, or Rogue
    • Scout -> Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue
    • Phantom -> Rogue or Warlock
    • Soulknife -> Monk, Paladin or Rogue
  • Sorcerer
    • Draconic Bloodline -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Ascendant Dragon)
    • Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (merge with Path of Wild Magic)
    • Divine Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Way of the Sun Soul)
    • Shadow Magic -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Aberrant Mind -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with the Great Old One; essentially becomes the Psion of 6e, choose your key ability score based on the class you graft it to)
    • Clockwork Soul -> Artificer or Sorcerer
    • Prismari -> See UA
    • Quandrix -> See UA
  • Warlock
    • This works a bit differently… The Pacts matter just as much as the Patrons.
    • The Fiend
      • Blade Pact -> Paladin or Warlock (merge with Conquest or Oathbreaker and maybe with the Hexblade?)
    • The Archfey
      • Blade Pact -> Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger or Warlock (merge with oath of the Ancients?)
    • The Great Old One
      • Blade Pact -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with Psi Warrior)
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with Aberrant Mind to get Psion theme for 6e)
    • The Undying -> Druid, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock (shift to be a bit more about immortality and imperishable spirit and combine the Lich stuff with The Undead patron)
      • Blade Pact -> Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> Make this the Templar from Dark Sun?
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Druid, Monk, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> This can be a theme for non Templars?
    • The Celestial
      • Blade -> Delete, superfluous with Paladins and Clerics and open theme subclasses
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric or Warlock
    • The Hexblade -> Paladin or Warlock
      • Remove Chains/Tome/Talisman pact and make this just Blade Pact
      • Potentially combine with Fiend Blade Pact and then with Oath of Conquest and/or Oathbreaker Paladin
    • The Genie -> Warlock or Wizard (Sha'ir were Wizards not Warlocks in early editions)
    • The Fathomless
      • Blade -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock (I'm a pirate arrr)
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman-> Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (Clerics DESPERATELY need a Water domain that's not combining Poseidon with Zeus; Druids could draw on the depths too)
    • The Undead
      • Blade -> Paladin or Warlock (Combine with Hexblade and Fiend Bladelock and possibly Oath of Conquest/Oathbreaker)
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores, and School of Necromancy)
    • Lorehold -> See UA
    • Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer
    • Witherbloom -> See UA
  • Wizard
    • Evocation -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Transmutation -> Bard, Druid, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Conjuration -> Druid, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Divination -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard
    • Enchantment -> Bard, Druid, or Wizard
    • Illusion -> Bard, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Necromancy -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores MAYBE, and The Undead)
    • Bladesinging -> Bard or Wizard (bladeSONG)
    • War Magic -> Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Order of Scribes -> Artificer, Bard, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with College of Lore and Tome Pact Warlocks and most importantly with Silverquill; honestly, Silverquill is like a do-over of Tasha's Scribe by giving it to Bards and Warlocks too, and also combine in the old Archivist Artificer UA)
    • Lorehold -> See UA
    • Prismari -> See UA
    • Quandrix -> See UA
    • Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer
 




Yaarel said:
Because subclasses are no longer for one class, probably call everything "archetype".
Click to expand...
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
 

Hussar said:
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
Click to expand...
The book of Strixhaven has already been announced. I assume the five college archetypes will make it into that book.

I hope there is enough time to clean up some of the archetype features.

For example, @Leatherhead makes good points about some archetypes being better than other archetypes.

It is important that the flavor is fun, the mechanics matches the flavor, and the mechanics are potent and balance with the mechanics of other archetypes.
 
Last edited:

Hussar said:
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
Click to expand...
It's a genuinely exciting experiment, and it has tremendous potential if it takes off.
 

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