VoP and intangible benefits

[Ahrimon]

I was reading the VoP vs. spellcasting materials thread and had a few thoughts. I didn't want to hijack that thread so here they are.

Many things in the game world have direct and/or lasting benefits but are not material possessions. Would you allow a VoP character to get intangible benefits? Is your answer based on the RaW or what you feel the spirit of the feat is? Each of these examples moves close to a good benefit to the character but is an intangible thing.

Would you allow a VoP character that has done something significant for someone, say stopped a major catastrophe, to owed a favor? It's something, that depending on who owes the favor, can be worth much more than a lot of worldly goods. I wouldn't allow the VoP character to ask for it. That's not in the spirit of Exalted. But if it was offered freely after the fact, then I would allow it myself.

A VoP character needs to get his friend raised from the dead. He can't pay for this obviously. Would he be able to do a quest/owe a big favor in return for this valuable service? I'm inclined to say yes. He's asking for a favor and in return is being asked to pay in time and services. Similar to stopping somewhere and asking for a bed to sleep in for the night and a meal, and in exchange you'll work to repay whoever it is.

A VoP character (and party) does a quest/favor for a powerful group of wizards. Afterwards, knowing he'll turn down any monetary/item rewards, they offer to place a permanent enchantment on the VoP character. I don't have the exact wording of VoP near me, but from what snippets I read in the other thread. This would be allowed in the RaW. But I'm iffy because I think it's a grey area in the spirit of the feat.

(Race specific example) A VoP character can't have magic armor. But a Warforged has natural armor that can be enchanted like magic armor. If after doing a quest/favor for someone magically inclined they wanted to reward the VoP warforged by enchanting his armor for him, would it violate the VoP? This example is very similar to the one above it, but it's comes much closer to having an actual item.

So here they are. Food for thought and discussion.

I had another thought about campaigns that make characters pay to train in order to advance their abilities, but I'll make a separate thread for that.

 

[Mistwell]

I agree with some of where you are going. I think the quest in exchange for raising a party member makes sense, for example. The unsolicited offer of a favor also makes sense (depending on what favor the VoP character asks for). However, the direct benefit stuff, like an enchantment, I do not think is in the spirit of the rule.

 

[Dimwhit]

I agree with Mistwell.

 

[Cabral]

In the case of the Warforged, I might alter VoP to include armor enchantments ...

 

[Pyrex]

Would you allow a VoP character to get intangible benefits?

Yes

Would you allow a VoP character that has done something significant for someone, say stopped a major catastrophe, to owed a favor?

Absolutely

Would he be able to do a quest/owe a big favor in return for this valuable service?

Yes

...they offer to place a permanent enchantment on the VoP character.

Can they cast Wish on his behalf? Yes.

Can they cast Greater Magic Fang followed by Permenancy? Also yes.

If after doing a quest/favor for someone magically inclined they wanted to reward the VoP warforged by enchanting his armor for him, would it violate the VoP?

This one violates the VoP. After the enchantment is complete the Warforged's (intrinsic) armor now has a GP value.

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

I dont know the warforged, but the guy said his armour was natural, so even though its got a GP value, its not an item, its part of him, more so than a weapon, whihc he is allowed ot carry.

My view on it is this

The RAW would allow a spell to be cast upon you, and made permanent, and it shouldnt violate your VoP, if it did, then an evil spellcaster could easily remove a VoP character by casting beneficial magic upon him, and then permanancy.

However, I think accepting spells being cast upon you with the view ot have them made permanent, goes against the spirit. I wouldnt do it on my character, as a player, and I wouldnt like to see a player do it if I was the GM.

Someone casting a benefical spell upon me as a reward, that had a duration, I would accept it. Like wise, if someone offered to cast wish on behalf of the VoP I would accept it, but then wish for something like 1million gold, and then start handing it out to charities etc I certainly wouldnt take a wish and use it for personal gain.

There is certianly no actual money involved if someone casts wish on you for free, and you chose a stat improvement, but you have taken a very powerful favour and used it for yourself, not the holistic lifestyle you appear to have chosen being VoP.

A VoP character owed an actual favour could quite easily ask the person owing the favour, to build a mission in the slums of the town. Thats the way I see a VoP character taking such intangible benefits, and utelising them within the spirit of the VoP.

Any outright permanent personal gain to the VoP character to me is a violation of the spirit of the Vow. Of course, its not the VoPs fault if some bugger bestows a title upon you, that sort of thing you have to put up with, but you dont have to tell anyone, just those who know might make you feel embarassed.

Feegle Out

 

[irdeggman]

The "you may not use any magic item of any sort" prevents having a permanent enchantment on the character.

There is a reason for this and IMO it violates the RAW but even more importantly it violates the spirit of the vow itself.

Favors are fine IMO and nothing specifically says they are "possessions".

 

[fafhrd]

The monk Eredor the Impoverished stepped over the bodies of his fallen comrades and proceeded toward the gaunt robed figure at the apex of the hall.

He called out in a stident voice, "Archemanderus the Vile, you have assassinated the rightful king of the land, taken up its rulership in foul mockery of the ancient code, and slain my friends and companions. Do not think though that you can defeat me!"

"Oh no, dear Eredor. I am well versed in rock, paper, scissors. I have no hope of defeating you," replied the wizened mage.

Eredor paused, taken aback by the admission yet cautious nonetheless. "You would surrender? Will you allow yourself to be taken to the prison Horribilus Maximus to await trial?"

At that the mage allowed a wicked smile. "Oh indeed, no. I shall contest you to the last. Are you aware that before the advent of my evil overlordship I was a rules lawyer? I have something far more ...beneficient in mind."

The monk swallowed, a growing sense of unease boring a pit in his stomach. "I have no interest in games, Archemanderus-"

"Oh nonsense. Your vexing presence is a perfect testament to the contrary." As Eredor made to advance, Archmanderus waggled a single finger in admonishment, "Tut tut, delay your initiative a bit longer, Sir Lintpockets. You're going to want to hear what I have to say. Good. Now back to the script. You see, I have, in consultation with the bar, drawn up certain documents that are to be unsealed upon my unfortunate demise. It goes something like this."

Archemanderus paused to clear his throat then began, "I Archemanderus, Lord of Bumbleton, ofttimes appended, the Vile, find myself repentant in my final days. This fact has been made clear to me through the efforts of the Moral Relatives Adventuring Company, in general and Eredor the Improvished, in particular. In repayment for these brave and courteous acts..."

Eyes widening in alarm, Eredor finally began to understand the significance of the events unfolding before him.

"I cede to Eredor my title as Lord, in perpetuity and without the possibility of revocation-"

The great hall resounded to cries to anguish and an endless litany of clauses and addenda.

 

[Jack Simth]

Oh, that particular circumstance is easy enough for Eredor the Impoverished to get around - Archemanderus the Vile isn't the rightful ruler of what he's handing over, and thus can't hand it over in that regard - it isn't really his. Eredor the Impoverished simply has to find the most leagle owner to hand it over to (possibly an eighth cousin, six times removed (or farther)..... could take a while, depending on how many people Archemanderus the Vile took out).

Now, if Archemanderus the Vile is a rightful Lord of a place wherein the laws of a previous ruler can't be revoked, then Eredor the Impoverished is in for it (unless there's a way around it I'm missing, or the DM is willing to bend the rules to let Eredor the Impoverished maintain his distance from the wealth sufficiently that he keeps his vow).

 

[blargney the second]

*lol* That's hilarious!