VoP and intangible benefits

[Rystil Arden]

Cool, I'm now officially "The guy above Rystil Arden" !

Darn, I thought that was Crothian

 

[Ahrimon]

I need to remember not to ask questions when I won't be able to get back for a couple days...

It seems to be the consensus of most people that:
1. Someone oweing the VoP character a favor is ok as long as the Vop character doesn't use that favor for any materail gain. Using to help others is ok.
2. Someone casting a spell for the VoP character, to benefit someone else is ok. i.e. raise dead. This is similar to the favor above.
3. Someone placing a permanent magic on the VoP character is not ok. While in no way a material benefit, it is still a "long lasting" benefit that the VoP character will enjoy for a good while.

I'm good with one and two. But three still leaves me feeling a bit iffy. To clarify, the VoP character should never be asking for a reward, nor expect one. But if one is given freely after the fact, I'm not sure if it violates the vow. Of course these are all under DM control, so it doesn't give the player a chance to try and powergame extra bonuses for his character.

There are too many situations where a VoP character could unwillingly be given the benefits of permanent magic. If the VoP character needed to get his ally back to town for that resurection spell, would he be forced to leave all of the gear behind so he doesn't carry material possesions? I would say no. If the character was given a material possesion, they could get rid of in an appropriate manner. Given ownership of land, find someone responsible to give it to as soon as possible. Given an item, give it someone who would use it to further goodness. Given gold, give it to the truely needy. Given a permanent magical effect,... What do you do? You can't give it away.

What do you do about non dispellable magical effects? Say Mr cold tired adventurer finds a room in the dungeon to hold up in. In this room there's a fountain. Drinking from this fountain permanently raises ability X by two points. You VoP character just unwittingly used a magical item with permanent benefits. I don't know if inadvertant use of an item qualifies as grounds to loose the vow, or if it's covered in the BoED. But even if some form of atonement is required for accidentally using an item, the benefits are still there.

Like someone mentioned. Not allowing permanent magical effects gives the BBEG a perfect method to remove the vow. Place a permanent spell on them and bam, there goes their vow. Want to mess with a captive a bit, put some permanent magic on them and then release them. They have no idea they have this magical effect, but thier vow is broken and they loose thier powers.

Pyrex mentioned that a warforged composite plating has a value after it's been enchanted. I don't agree with this. Which is mainly why I merged it with the permancy question into a more general permanent magical effect. Does a character gain a GP value because they have a permanent magical effect? For example: Roy's mystical boots of flying cost 30,000gp. Is a character who gets a permanent magical effect exactly the same as the boots now worth 30,000+ gp? And even if you look at it that way. It doesn't matter what a character is worth. As long as he carries no items other than those allowed by the vow.

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

There are too many situations where a VoP character could unwillingly be given the benefits of permanent magic. If the VoP character needed to get his ally back to town for that resurection spell, would he be forced to leave all of the gear behind so he doesn't carry material possesions? I would say no. If the character was given a material possesion, they could get rid of in an appropriate manner.

Picking something up does not confer ownership. My VoP Monk always took her share of group loot (this stopped the other PC's from getting more than their fair share and being overequipped for level) and then gave it was to various needy people/charities. Also dont forget that if you do need something, such as food, drink, a bed for the night, you must beg for it, it has to be freely given. Most inn's charge to stay, so if they take pity on you, and let you sleep free of charge, they have lost money, but they do so willingly, this doesnt violate your VoP because that bed for the night has intrinsic value

Given ownership of land, find someone responsible to give it to as soon as possible. Given an item, give it someone who would use it to further goodness. Given gold, give it to the truely needy. Given a permanent magical effect,... What do you do? You can't give it away.

The characters are living in a World of dieties, very tangible Gods, who can and will make thier presence known, the rules books only cover a small amoutn fo any such gods that might exist. In this vein, anyone giving out any kind of reward, should be taking pains to ensure that he does not violate someones beliefs. Therefore, all rewards should be stipulated before thay can be accepted. You could hardly "force" someone under a vow of chastity to accept 6 concubines now could you?

What do you do about non dispellable magical effects? Say Mr cold tired adventurer finds a room in the dungeon to hold up in. In this room there's a fountain. Drinking from this fountain permanently raises ability X by two points. You VoP character just unwittingly used a magical item with permanent benefits. I don't know if inadvertant use of an item qualifies as grounds to loose the vow, or if it's covered in the BoED. But even if some form of atonement is required for accidentally using an item, the benefits are still there.

The 3rd level of VoP gives you sustenance, so you have no need to eat or drink anyhow. If you knew before hand of its benefits, to drink form the fountain purely to gain those benefits I suppose would be wrong, but its also not a worldy possession, you have given up material things, and the enhancement bonus is not exactly material. However, I would worry more about all the other players wiht a fountain of endless enhancements, than the VoP guy.

Like someone mentioned. Not allowing permanent magical effects gives the BBEG a perfect method to remove the vow. Place a permanent spell on them and bam, there goes their vow. Want to mess with a captive a bit, put some permanent magic on them and then release them. They have no idea they have this magical effect, but thier vow is broken and they loose thier powers.

Tough one this, again the person with the Vow hasnt broken any rules, hes lived his life as a pure person should, if the GM were to do this to the character, then blame the character and remove his powers, then I would look very dimly upon the Dm in question, and not the RAW of VoP

A lot fo these things strike me as ways to try and trip up a VoP character. If someone is that hard pressed to strip VoP, they probably go to similar lengths to make paladins fall form grace, and should maybe re-consider allowing it in thier games if thats the way they view it.

A GM has ultimate power, but you go around treating players like opponents, it can get very lonely at the table on your own. I am not implying you are like this, I dont know one way or the other, its just the questions strike me as something that may have happned, either you did it to someone, or they did it to you. Then again they might be purely hypothetical, but the only true answers can come from the GM of the campaign, and how he views VoP

Feegle Out

 

[TYPO5478]

Eyes widening in alarm, Eredor finally began to understand the significance of the events unfolding before him.

"I cede to Eredor my title as Lord, in perpetuity and without the possibility of revocation-"

The great hall resounded to cries to anguish and an endless litany of clauses and addenda.

If you really want to talk about the spirit of the rules, I can't imagine an Exalted character hesitating to destroy or apprehend evil because it might put his blessings in jeopardy. A truly Exalted character would sacrifice his own benefits to take out the villain once and for all. At least mine would.

That said, nice story, fafhrd!