Vorpal Crits

[hong]

because a minion with a vorpal (given your reading of the rules) would do infinite damage on a normal hit, not only on critical ones.

... so, why would you give a vorpal sword to a minion?

 

[DLichen]

You're going to make me do statistics aren't you? AREN'T YOU? Let's use a

Alright, for the sake of argument you make a 5[w] attack for an average of 5[2d4] = 10d4

Rolling damage you get [10*2.5] = 22.5, then you get a an expected 2 and a half exploding die which adds 6.25 damage.

28.75 <<<<< 40

The number is probably a bit on the low side but I severely doubt even you're going to get enough rerolls to make a noncrit better than a crit on average.

You'll have to get lucky with dice and use gauntlets of destruction to make noncrits better than crits.

 

[Andur]

Guys you're just trying to break the game.

Critical hits get weapon damage maximized, thus you calculate the highest damage you could roll with your attack, then take it as fixed damage. no roll. You can call that a damage roll or whatever you want, but the maximized damage does not include a die roll, it's, well, fixed (so no vorpal effect on it). Then you roll any EXTRA criticall damage (wich is effected by vorpal).

Now what? You give a vorpal weapon to a minion monster, then since minions always do fixed damage, the minion makes infinite damage with a vorpal just becouse you don't roll any dice, but you call it a damage roll anyway?

please, so lame.

Only thing lame is your logic. Fixed damage can't be maximized, since it is fixed.

If you don't make a damage roll you don't add in any additional bonuses, period. Crits clearly show in every example in the PHB that you do add bonuses to crits and they trigger additional effects. There is no way to get maximum damage result without maximum rolls.

If you "do the math", a vorpal on a crit will average to do about *1.5 more damage than a non-vorpal crit using identical weapons, that's hardly game breaking.

What Dlich is proposing is to make the vorpal property useless on an attack roll of a 1 (since you miss) and a roll of 20 (since you crit),

 

[Danceofmasks]

Lol ... I didn't say it was likely, I said you have a fair whack.
Not that if you're going to buy a level 30 vorpal weapon you'd even bat an eyelid at it not being a falchion, but ... the point is moot.
Sooner or later, some guy (irregardless of actual odds) is going to make his 7[W] attack and say, "please not be a crit, please not be a crit" to his dice.

And why wouldn't you use gauntlets?
I thought that's the point of the silly combo ..

 

[kclark]

But in every other form of attack it is impossible for a non critical hit to be better than a critical hit. Ever. So that leads me to think it should stay that way for vorpal weapons too. Thus in my games you get to roll your weapon damage again after a crit.

 

[DLichen]

Only thing lame is your logic. Fixed damage can't be maximized, since it is fixed.

If you don't make a damage roll you don't add in any additional bonuses, period. Crits clearly show in every example in the PHB that you do add bonuses to crits and they trigger additional effects. There is no way to get maximum damage result without maximum rolls.

If you "do the math", a vorpal on a crit will average to do about *1.5 more damage than a non-vorpal crit using identical weapons, that's hardly game breaking.

What Dlich is proposing is to make the vorpal property useless on an attack roll of a 1 (since you miss) and a roll of 20 (since you crit),

No, because fixed damage equal to calculated max does not imply maximized fixed.

Seriously, get some quotes on the book out, this is a farce. If you want to play vorpals the other way, fine, but the rules are quite clear on how they are meant to be played.

@gaunts of destruction

I don't want to do the math to actually find out the average damage on it, but it's still not going to do more damage on a noncrit than on a crit.

 

[DLichen]

If you don't make a damage roll you don't add in any additional bonuses, period. Crits clearly show in every example in the PHB that you do add bonuses to crits and they trigger additional effects. There is no way to get maximum damage result without maximum rolls.

If you want to say things like these, bring the quotes or page numbers. Otherwise, I have no way to verify what you are saying.

I don't think there is another property in the PHB that even cares about maxed rolls other than vorpal, let alone it being in every case.

 

[Andur]

Dlich, when I don't quote you I'm not calling you names, second calling someone's logic lame is not calling names either. (English really isn't your primary language is it?)

I've quoted the book until I'm blue in the face, somehow you want to say that Damage = 5 is the same as 2[W]+ Str. mods which happens to be a crit are both fixed damage, but the rules clearly both state and imply they are not.

Your math in the example above proves how not broken RAW with Vorpal is, you would do 68 instead of 40 points of damage, I'd say that is a decent damage boost for an end game weapon.

The rules are quite clear, but you don't want to play by the rules, you want to play in Dlichenland where maximized rolls are not rolls.

 

[DLichen]

Dlich, when I don't quote you I'm not calling you names, second calling someone's logic lame is not calling names either. (English really isn't your primary language is it?)

I've quoted the book until I'm blue in the face, somehow you want to say that Damage = 5 is the same as 2[W]+ Str. mods which happens to be a crit are both fixed damage, but the rules clearly both state and imply they are not.

Your math in the example above proves how not broken RAW with Vorpal is, you would do 68 instead of 40 points of damage, I'd say that is a decent damage boost for an end game weapon.

The rules are quite clear, but you don't want to play by the rules, you want to play in Dlichenland where maximized rolls are not rolls.

What?

In your example it's clearly 2[w] + 7 where the 7 is 3 stat + 2 feat + 2 weapon

For 2[1d8] + 7 fpr 2[8] + 7 = 23 damage.

Proving something not broken or not does not affect how it works in the rules at all. And stop making snide insinuations like you just did, please refrain from insults if you can't discuss things like an adult.

 

[Andur]

phb 276:

DAMAGE ROLLS
✦ Roll the damage indicated in the power description.
If you’re using a weapon for the attack, the damage is
some multiple of your weapon damage dice.
✦ Add the ability modifier specified in the power
description. Usually, this is the same ability modifier
you used to determine your base attack bonus for
the attack.
In addition, any of the following factors might apply to
a damage roll:
✦ Racial or feat bonuses
✦ An enhancement bonus (usually from a magic
weapon or an implement)
✦ An item bonus
✦ A power bonus
✦ Untyped bonuses

Note if you don't roll damage then you don't get to apply any of the latter. (Reason you don't add any of the latter to Cleave secondary damage)

PHB 278:

CRITICAL HIT DAMAGE
✦ Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making
an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total
attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense.
If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you
still hit automatically.
✦ Precision: Some class features and powers allow
you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers
other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).
✦ Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage,
determine the maximum damage you can roll with
your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks
that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a
critical hit.)
✦ Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as
well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage
you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra
damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum
damage; you add the result of the roll.

PHB 236

Property: Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage
die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional
result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another
maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding.

Just to let the blue out...