Vorpal Crits

[DLichen]

Dlichen since you clearly want to "Stick to your guns" even when wrong, please explain the following:



IF you are taking :

literally, then how does the paladin in the example get a critical damage result of 23?

Critical hit = maximum damage rolled on dice. Vorpal weapon = maximum damage is rolled on a die take result add roll of die to damage, rinse and repeat. However, critical damage ONLY applies to the initial dice rolled, any extra dice which are granted are not maximized, the critical damage "roll" is resolved before you roll any "maximum RESULT" rerolls for the vorpal ability.

The wording on critical hit just was easier than stating "roll damage until you get maximum". The way it should have been stated was "your damage roll is maximized" rather than throwing in that "instead" word.

8+8+3+2+2 = 23?

Then the paladin has a 2d6 extra thunder damage that is not maximized because it is extra critical hit damage.

For final damage of 23+2d6

I'm not sure where the problem is.

Just so we're in agreement -> when a vorpal weapon is critted, you DO NOT roll extra die for the the autocritted weapon dice because you didn't roll them, and vorpal clearly refer to ROLLING damage DIE, which critical hit rule specifically says to NOT ROLL. Vorpal rules does not mention the damage roll at all.

 

[Andur]

The problem is you cannot add:

✦ Racial or feat bonuses
✦ An enhancement bonus (usually from a magic
weapon or an implement)
✦ An item bonus
✦ A power bonus
✦ Untyped bonuses

unless you make a DAMAGE ROLL.

 

[hong]

I think it's fairly clear what the intended meaning is, given how vorpal weapons have always been (near) instakills in previous editions of D&D.

Normal hit:
1. roll [w]
2. if max, goto 1
3. add up

Critical hit:
1. start with maximum dmg
2. roll [w]
3. if max, goto 2
4. roll 1d12
5. if max, goto 4
6 repeat 4-5 6 times, once for each plus
7. add up

 

[DLichen]

The problem is you cannot add:

unless you make a DAMAGE ROLL.

Yes, that is correct.

Vorpal never mentions damage roll at all, only damage DIE.

When a critical hit maxes the damage roll, you never rolled any damage die, and thus vorpal does not trigger.

 

[DLichen]

I think it's fairly clear what the intended meaning is, given how vorpal weapons have always been (near) instakills in previous editions of D&D.

Normal hit:
1. roll [w]
2. if max, goto 1
3. add up

Critical hit:
1. start with maximum dmg
2. roll [w]
3. if max, goto 2
4. roll 1d12
5. if max, goto 4
6 repeat 4-5 6 times, once for each plus
7. add up

There is nothing in the rules that suggest you roll [w] again after getting max damage. Unless you can pull quotes, I remain opposed.

 

[hong]

There is nothing in the rules that suggest you roll [w] again after getting max damage.

In the bit where if you roll the maximum result on the damage die, you roll again, of course.

 

[DLichen]

In the bit where if you roll the maximum result on the damage die, you roll again, of course.

But you never rolled the max result on damage die, the die got automatically maxed in the resolution of the critical hit.

Critical hits specifically says:

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage,
determine the maximum damage you can roll with
your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks
that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a
critical hit.)

Rather than roll damage, you just straight up calculate it.

 

[hong]

But you never rolled the max result on damage die, the die got automatically maxed in the resolution of the critical hit.

Right. You obtained the damage from the damage die, and thus you rolled it, using the plain-English vernacular meaning of "roll the die" to mean "get a reading from a random number generator which happens to look like a polyhedral thingy". You just happened to get the maximum result automatically because it was a crit.

 

[Andur]

Wrong again Dlichen, you are good at being wrong, hopefully you get paid to do it:

CRITICAL HIT DAMAGE
✦ Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making
an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total
attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense.
If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you
still hit automatically.
✦ Precision: Some class features and powers allow
you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers
other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).
✦ Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage,
determine the maximum damage you can roll with
your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks
that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a
critical hit.)
✦ Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as
well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage
you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra
damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum
damage; you add the result of the roll.

Hong's flowchart is correct if you replace [W] with die and resolve all die for steps 2-3 before you go to 4.

 

[DLichen]

Right, so what are we arguing about again?

Let's be clear, when we roll a crit with a vorpal weapon:

1. 20 yay
2. I am using a vorpal longsword +6 so I deal 2[w] being epic for 16+6+whatever misc bonuses
3. I then get my final result and add 6d12 to the roll

DONE

I do not roll 2 more d8s because I rolled maximum on two die I didn't actually roll.