Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[baberg]

Max damage is 8 for the weapon rules lawyering it won't change that fact.

I don't care what max damage for the weapon is, and neither does the Vorpal Property. It doesn't say "Whenever you roll the maximum possible amount for this weapon" it says "Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon"

It's not rules lawyering. It's the rule, period. You're misreading it.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

Considering that previous vorpal swords were insta-kill on criticals, this one is weaker. I can't see the problem here.

Really the only saving grace on Vorpal is the high level because if it was in the lower 20's I wouldn't be surprised to see a remarkable coincidence of players with vorpal on xd4 weapons.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

I don't care what max damage for the weapon is, and neither does the Vorpal Property. It doesn't say "Whenever you roll the maximum possible amount for this weapon" it says "Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon"

It's not rules lawyering. It's the rule, period. You're misreading it.

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

Sorry it took a while to stop laughing. The fact that 95% of the weapons in the PHB use a SINGLE die for damage doesn't lead you think that maybe just maybe they meant max damage from the die or 5% of time dice.

I guess not, this is why we need 1000 page rule books. sigh

 

[bganon]

I don't quite get why it's so bad/overpowering. I've run simulations: a vorpal falchion averages about 46 points of damage on a 6[W] attack, versus 36 points for a vanilla +6 falchion. Meanwhile, the vanilla +6 greateaxe is doing 45 points. This does ignore crits (and the whole argument about whether to explode the maximized dice), which is where vorpal weapons do tend to shine, but even that's as much because of the +6d12 on crit than the exploding dice.

Vorpals get a nice damage increase but it doesn't strike me as especially overpowering, especially since you pay for it with +4 levels, essentially. Calculating damage is kind of a pain in the ass, though.

 

[robertliguori]

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

Sorry it took a while to stop laughing. The fact that 95% of the weapons in the PHB use a SINGLE die for damage doesn't lead you think that maybe just maybe they meant max damage from the die or 5% of time dice.

I guess not, this is why we need 1000 page rule books. sigh

A tip for those interested in civil discussion: "This is what the rule actually says." and "This is what (it is obvious to me) that the rule actually means." are not logically equivalent statements. If you say the first while meaning the second, it is recommended that you add the Humpty-Dumpty quote to your signature, so that those of us who use words and expect consistent meaning will be forewarned.

That being said, were I to game 4E, I would change vorpal weapons so that each die of the weapon damage was rerolled. If you roll 2d4 and get a 4 and a 3, you reroll the 1d4 that came up 4 and just that 1d4. It would also explicitly only apply to the [W] damage dice.

This is not what the rule says. Because the rule does not say what I want it to say, I am changing it to say what I want to say.

 

[DLichen]

I agree with robertligouri 100%.

Also helpful if you note when you're doing something because you prefer it. That way we don't argue with you over it when it's completely meaningless.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

I don't quite get why it's so bad/overpowering. I've run simulations: a vorpal falchion averages about 46 points of damage on a 6[W] attack, versus 36 points for a vanilla +6 falchion. Meanwhile, the vanilla +6 greateaxe is doing 45 points. This does ignore crits (and the whole argument about whether to explode the maximized dice), which is where vorpal weapons do tend to shine, but even that's as much because of the +6d12 on crit than the exploding dice.

Vorpals get a nice damage increase but it doesn't strike me as especially overpowering, especially since you pay for it with +4 levels, essentially. Calculating damage is kind of a pain in the ass, though.

I have no idea why you're comparing a vorpal falchion to a vanilla greataxe.

Let me put it this way, the inherent power equalizer for a vorpal weapon is, the greater the damage a weapon does the less frequently you will get that vorpal boost. So a 1d6 weapon will get the vorpal effect 2x as much as a 1d12 weapon. But the the 1d12 will score greater damage when it does proc (to steal a wow term). But now because you are rolling 2d4 you will proc a 1d4 die extra damage half the time. So your base damage of 2-8 which is better than say 1d6 damage weapon now also procs more times than a 1d6 damage weapon which breaks the equalization.

You honestly believe that was the designers intent?

 

[kerbarian]

Honestly, while the vorpal weapon damage looks potentially huge, it doesn't work out that way if you do the math. In the best possible case -- using a vorpal falchion (2d4) with gauntlets of destruction (reroll all 1's) -- you raise the average [W] damage from 5 to 9. Just using a weapon with 2d6 base damage would give you average [W] damage of 7. It's still a good combo, but it doesn't seem overpowered for what you're spending.

Math on the 5 -> 9 [W] damage:

A basic falchion is 2d4, with an average of 2.5 per d4, so 5 average damage total.

Rerolling all 1's means that your possible results are 2,3,4 on each die, and that gives vorpal a 1/3 chance of granting an extra roll, then a 1/3 chance of granting an extra roll on the extra roll, etc. That works out to 1 / (1 - 1/3) = 1.5 rolls per die on average. With possible results of 2,3,4, the average damage per die is 3, and the rerolls boost that to 4.5. A falchion starts at 2d4, so that's a total of 9 average damage.

If you're using a vorpal falchion without the gauntlets, the average [W] damage is 6.67, which is less than a non-vorpal 2d6 weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let me put it this way, the inherent power equalizer for a vorpal weapon is, the greater the damage a weapon does the less frequently you will get that vorpal boost. So a 1d6 weapon will get the vorpal effect 2x as much as a 1d12 weapon. But the the 1d12 will score greater damage when it does proc (to steal a wow term). But now because you are rolling 2d4 you will proc a 1d4 die extra damage half the time. So your base damage of 2-8 which is better than say 1d6 damage weapon now also procs more times than a 1d6 damage weapon which breaks the equalization.

You honestly believe that was the designers intent?

Let's say you only get the Vorpal damage when you roll two 4s.

Your base damage with a 1d12 weapon is better than a 2d4 weapon, but the 1d12 weapon "procs" more often than the 2d4 weapon (1 in 12 instead of 1 in 16), which breaks the equalisation.

... do you honestly believe that was the designers' intent?

-Hyp.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

Let's say you only get the Vorpal damage when you roll two 4s.

Your base damage with a 1d12 weapon is better than a 2d4 weapon, but the 1d12 weapon "procs" more often than the 2d4 weapon (1 in 12 instead of 1 in 16), which breaks the equalisation.

... do you honestly believe that was the designers' intent?

-Hyp.

True enough, 8.33% is greater than 6.25%. But still allot closer than 50%.

I don't have my 4e PHB handy so I'm not sure about the glossary there. But I'm pretty sure I remember from 3e them saying to treat die=dice when talking about weapon damage. ie pretend you have a single die that has 2-8 on it as opposed to rolling two separate dice and adding the results.

Anyway its been my experience to read beyond the RAW when dealing with these issues and I've been more right than wrong when the FAQ came out. By all means, if you can convince your DMs have at it. I wouldn't bite and I've heard no argument besides RAW. So like I said this is why rulebooks need to be 1000 pages to cover every single permutation and combination.