Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[Hypersmurf]

True enough, 8.33% is greater than 6.25%. But still allot closer than 50%.

But whether you consider the maximum per-d4 or per-2d4, either way, there's a break in the average-damage/reroll-frequency progression. Which suggests that there is, in fact, no average-damage/reroll-frequency progression, and that arguing for either interpretation based on the non-existent average-damage/reroll-frequency progression is invalid.

Similarly:

The fact that 95% of the weapons in the PHB use a SINGLE die for damage doesn't lead you think that maybe just maybe they meant max damage from the die or 5% of time dice.

This can be expressed either way as well.

95% of weapons use a single die, thus in 95% of cases it's clear that each die's maximum is considered individually. For the other 5%, why would we stop considering each die individually?

or

95% of weapons use a single die, thus in 95% of cases it's clear that the weapon's base damage in considered a single unit. For the other 5%, why would we stop considering the base damage as a single unit?

The argument works either way, so again, it's meaningless.

The only definition that's important to resolving the question is "What is a damage die?"

If any die used to calculate damage is a damage die, each d4 is considered separately, and so are dice involved in sneak attack, criticals, etc.

If any die that is part of a [W] is considered a damage die, then each d4 is considered separately, but sneak attack, criticals etc are not.

If a damage die means [W], then 2d4 is considered as a unit, but sneak attack, criticals etc are excluded.

-Hyp.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you go with each individual die being considered, than 2d weapons (like glaives and mauls) benefit from Vorpal more often, but to a lesser degree than comparable large-die weapons, like greatswords and greataxes. If you consider the two dice as a unit, then the weapons benefit much less from vorpal, and to about the same degree.

For instance, the chance of rolling at least one 6 on 2d6 is about 20%, but you only get 1d6 extra damage, while the chance, while the chance of rolling 12 on a d12 is only a little more than 8%, but you're rolling a d12. The chance of rolling two sixes, OTOH, is less than 3%. On a single die weapon, Vorpal adds a little over 1/2 a point of damage, on average - it's very swingy, more so the larger the die, but that's about the average, with smaller dice doing better (.625 for d4 to .54 for d12). On a 2d6 weapon, counting each die sepparately adds about 1 point on average, while counting them together adds about 1/5th of a point on average.

So, the question is, should the 2d6 weapon be about twice as good, or less than half as good? Because 'about the same' doesn't seem to be an option.

 

[DLichen]

TWICE AS GOOD, if only because Falchions need the boost and 2d6 twohanded is a maul that can't be vorpal.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

But whether you consider the maximum per-d4 or per-2d4, either way, there's a break in the average-damage/reroll-frequency progression. Which suggests that there is, in fact, no average-damage/reroll-frequency progression, and that arguing for either interpretation based on the non-existent average-damage/reroll-frequency progression is invalid.

Similarly:


This can be expressed either way as well.

95% of weapons use a single die, thus in 95% of cases it's clear that each die's maximum is considered individually. For the other 5%, why would we stop considering each die individually?

or

95% of weapons use a single die, thus in 95% of cases it's clear that the weapon's base damage in considered a single unit. For the other 5%, why would we stop considering the base damage as a single unit?

The argument works either way, so again, it's meaningless.

The only definition that's important to resolving the question is "What is a damage die?"

If any die used to calculate damage is a damage die, each d4 is considered separately, and so are dice involved in sneak attack, criticals, etc.

If any die that is part of a [W] is considered a damage die, then each d4 is considered separately, but sneak attack, criticals etc are not.

If a damage die means [W], then 2d4 is considered as a unit, but sneak attack, criticals etc are excluded.

-Hyp.

You didn't even address the second part of my argument but I guess I know why.

In no iteration of D&D do I ever recall treating each die of weapon damage separately. Nor do I see anything in 4e to indicate otherwise. Show me any official posting from any edition saying otherwise and I will say your argument has merit. I really don't understand why people try to read more into stuff.

 

[Tony Vargas]

TWICE AS GOOD, if only because Falchions need the boost and 2d6 twohanded is a maul that can't be vorpal.

OK, there is that.

D&D has generally rated 2d4 and d10 about the same on weapons. 2d4 does 5 average damage per hit, Vorpal, considering only the re-rolling, it'd do 6.25. 1d10 does 5.5 on average, Vorpal, it'd be 6.05. I suppose you could see vorpal as a 'great equalizer' between 2d4 and 1d10 weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In no iteration of D&D do I ever recall treating each die of weapon damage separately. Nor do I see anything in 4e to indicate otherwise.

How do you treat Gauntlets of Destruction when used with a Falchion?

"When rolling damage with a melee attack, reroll all 1s".

Can I roll any 1s with a Falchion? Or, since I'm rolling 2d4, is the lowest I can roll a 2, and thus unaffected by the Gauntlets even those both d4 are showing "1"?

-Hyp.

 

[Andur]

Well, according to my link, any 4 would on a 1d4 would mean a reroll, no matter if you're rolling 2d4 or 14d4.

And a 8 would mean a 8+2d4, and a 7 from a 3,4 on 2d4 would mean 7+1d4.

You are free to disbelieve however.

The end is nigh, Dlichen and I agree totally on this subject.

The problem with the OP's position is what happens when you roll 10d4, you need to roll a 40 in order for vorpal to kick in? Them are pretty slim odds.

A damage die is a singular entity, 2d4 are damage dice. Each die has a maximum value, if that value is hit then it triggers Vorpal.

 

[IanB]

Does the math actually result in a significant average damage advantage for the 2d4 weapon, or are we just speculating here?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The problem with the OP's position is what happens when you roll 10d4, you need to roll a 40 in order for vorpal to kick in? Them are pretty slim odds.

Is the 10d4 made up of 5[W], each 2d4?

In which case, no, any particular [W] that came up (4,4) would trigger the Vorpal.

The problem being that you can no longer roll 10d4; you have to roll 2d4 five times... or, at least, have five different-coloured 2d4 pairs.

-Hyp.

 

[Andur]

HS, exactly, nobody does that, they roll XdY all at once, the only time when they roll less is when they don't have enough dice. Under the OP's ruling do I have to roll by 10d4 in five pairs or can I just roll them all at once? If I roll them all at once do I get to pair them up or does the DM, or do we roll to to see which rolls are paired up?

The answer, everytime a 4 appears on a d4 or a 6 on a d6 or an 8 on a d8, a 10 on a d10 or a 12 on a d12 you reroll that die.

And page 8 sidebar clears up the whole damage die thing, smae thing was in 3.0 and 3.5 in similiar areas.