Vow of Poverty and Level Adjustment

[pawsplay]

Instead, you're trying to base the benefits on character level, which is just as arbitrary a concept in-game as is ECL, without providing either an in-game OR game balance justification.

This sounds like the "Adding Cleric and Wizard levels to beat SR" argument in different clothes. Character level is not arbitrary; it's merely abstract. It represents the characters's competence. The amount of wealth sacrificed is immaterial; whether you have 20 gp or 2000 gp, the question is what you do with it. The idea of some cosmic force accounting how much wealth the character has discarded and rewarding him accordingly his ludicrous.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Pawsplay, would you say a character with a positive level adjustment is equal to a character with no level adjustment of the same ECL, if both of the characters are unequipped, generally speaking? What about if both characters are fully equpped? I'm curious because I have mixed feelings on this subject.

 

[James McMurray]

Instead, you're trying to base the benefits on character level, which is just as arbitrary a concept in-game as is ECL, without providing either an in-game OR game balance justification.

This sounds like the "Adding Cleric and Wizard levels to beat SR" argument in different clothes. Character level is not arbitrary; it's merely abstract. It represents the characters's competence. The amount of wealth sacrificed is immaterial; whether you have 20 gp or 2000 gp, the question is what you do with it. The idea of some cosmic force accounting how much wealth the character has discarded and rewarding him accordingly his ludicrous.

The powers come from your personal strength of character as an [Exalted] soul. The only cosmic force that should be making sure it remains balanced is the DM. Its his job to ensure that things are fair. And to give fewer abilities to characters of the same effective character level just isn't fair.

 

[Piratecat]

P-kitty: Much as I generally respect your wisdom, I must disagree with you that VoP is overpowered. The only classes that really can use it effectively in the first place are sorcerers and monks, for whom it's pretty powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. A sorcerer/exalted arcanist with VoP is really powerful, but I've seen better combos, and at least this one requires SEVERAL DM permissions to access.

I'm not intimately tied to that opinion; I need to see it in play first.

However, see this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70907

 

[ruleslawyer]

This sounds like the "Adding Cleric and Wizard levels to beat SR" argument in different clothes. Character level is not arbitrary; it's merely abstract. It represents the characters's competence.

So does ECL.

The amount of wealth sacrificed is immaterial; whether you have 20 gp or 2000 gp, the question is what you do with it. The idea of some cosmic force accounting how much wealth the character has discarded and rewarding him accordingly his ludicrous.

Yet that seems to be entirely the point of Vow of Poverty, Vow of Peace, Vow of Chastity, etc. as well as the entire philosophical justification behind self-denial. (As a Hindu, I'm pretty familiar with the ideology behind fasting, penance, and various other aspects of self-denial). The fact that VoP is also designed to replace the wealth that you sacrificed, and that its benefits are equivalent to those conferred by x gp value of magic items, makes the amount of wealth sacrificed absolutely material! Since wealth is dependent on ECL, and VoP intended to compensate for sacrifice, VoP should depend on ECL. QED.

Pcat: That is an interesting thread, and I'd be inclined to agree that VoP is a bit too good for any character who's not equipment-dependent. Moreover, I'd almost certainly use the alt version described therein.

 

[Scion]

Pawsplay, would you say a character with a positive level adjustment is equal to a character with no level adjustment of the same ECL, if both of the characters are unequipped, generally speaking? What about if both characters are fully equpped? I'm curious because I have mixed feelings on this subject.

From what I've seen (and I know you werent asking me..lol) LA races and templates were designed to be on the weak side intentionally. Nearly all of them are on the weak to worthless side for the level that they should be at. It seems that someone was worried about it being too much of a no brainer to take them and strayed too far the other way. Paying for the same abilities twice and all.

As for being on topic, I would definately say you go for your total level +LA to determine powers. If you normally get x amount of gold and this feat is supposed to replace that x then there is no reason to give them something that is supposed to replace something much lower instead. Give them the full benefit, they already pay enough as it is to hinder them more.

 

[pawsplay]

So does ECL.

No, it doesn't. For a quick test, consider the ECL of characters with a swimming speed in a marine campaign versus a land-based one.

Furthermore, it sets a basement on "how poor" a creature with an ECL can be. There is no such thing, for instance, as a Hobgoblin or Aasimir with minimal VOP bonuses. Young gold dragons, truly, they are mighty ascetics.

VOP should be an Ascetic Prestige class. It would start only at the point you surrender your worldly goods, not after having supported yourself in the typical adventurer lifestyle for 12 levels, it would get the ECL thing out of the picture, and the rewards would be proportionate to your commitment to the ascetic lifestyle.

 

[ThirdWizard]

LA races and templates were designed to be on the weak side intentionally

I would agree with that assessment for the most part. A guideline of having more hitdice than LA is important when choosing a creature with an LA. For example, don't start a half-celestial in a 5th (EC) level game, or you'll be in over your head very very fast, but at the same time at 9th (EC) level, you should have the resources to make up for your lack of hit dice (to an extent).

LA is very very difficult to work with.

VOP should be an Ascetic Prestige class. It would start only at the point you surrender your worldly goods, not after having supported yourself in the typical adventurer lifestyle for 12 levels, it would get the ECL thing out of the picture, and the rewards would be proportionate to your commitment to the ascetic lifestyle.

They tried to do this in the forsaker, and it didn't work at all.

 

[Halivar]

In reply to the OP and subsequent posts saying it ought to only count class levels:

If you play using the were-tiger (ask your DM) from Dragon #313, then the +9 ECL is represented using real character levels, thus mooting the question and avoiding a rules debate.

Note that I'm not commenting on the balance/brokeness of VoP or validity of Dragon material, just trying to answer the OP.