Vow of Poverty and Level Adjustment

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

Any questions of balance, and comparing to DMG level monies should take into account that you have to burn TWO feats to earn the benefits here, Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty. The bottom line of balance depends on your campaign though. Monty Haul DM's will probably have players that feel gyped with Vow of Poverty.

Veldrane - Will your first level weretiger have two feats to burn at level one?

Considering that I feel most Racial Level Adjustments are too high ( with a few execptions ) In my game I would rule that your LA could be added to Class Level for this one.

Stalker0 - Yeah, monk is the way to go. My 6th level PsiWarrior2/Monk4 has an AC of 25 with this feats benefits! Check out the Kensai PrC from the Complete Warrior for a great way of improving his offensive firepower.

 

[Camarath]

Veldrane - Will your first level weretiger have two feats to burn at level one?

Maybe from Base Creature: Human?

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

Maybe from Base Creature: Human?

Yeah, I don't see where he mentioned base Race in his post above...

 

[Camarath]

Yeah, I don't see where he mentioned base Race in his post above...

I don't think he did mention his race. I was just suggesting it as a possiblity. It could also be that he got the additional feat from 6 HD that being a Weretiger gives you.

 

[pawsplay]

Of course the Feat is sub-optimal for +ECL creatures. If you have so many natural abilities, you're giving up less anyway.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Of course the Feat is sub-optimal for +ECL creatures. If you have so many natural abilities, you're giving up less anyway.

How does that make sense?

An ECL 12 character is still giving up 88k of magic items, just like a 12th-level character with no LA. LA is suposed to be calculated with the expectation that it also figures into character equipment. Equipment is one very good reason why a PC troll Ftr1 has an ECL of 12, and is thus arguably a CR 12 character, while his NPC counterpart is CR 6.

True, a troll with VoP suffers less on the "low end," so to speak, than a human fighter, since he's got the claws and bite to make up for having no martial weapon access. Ultimately, however, the bonuses from VoP will just cancel out the lack of equipment, same as with any other character.

P-kitty: Much as I generally respect your wisdom, I must disagree with you that VoP is overpowered. The only classes that really can use it effectively in the first place are sorcerers and monks, for whom it's pretty powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. A sorcerer/exalted arcanist with VoP is really powerful, but I've seen better combos, and at least this one requires SEVERAL DM permissions to access.

 

[pawsplay]

How does that make sense?

There are basically two kinds of things magic items can do for you. They can give you More, or they can give you something New. A +5 long sword is More than a regular longsword. A wand of magic missiles is More for a Wizard, but New for a Rogue.

In terms of New abilities, anything with more than or two levels adjustment already has some exotic abilities. Reach, darkvision, flight, regeneration, whatever.

In terms of More abilities, creatures with adjustments often have numbers in specific areas that outstrip other characters. Hobgoblins have two Ability bonuses and no penalties, and some nice Skill bonuses. Aasimir Paladins have bonuses to both a Paladin's most valuable stats. Anything with a natural armor bonus has something no conventional race offers.

To put it simply, a Llamasu with a VOP is not any worse off than a Llamasu without one, simply because they don't tend to use, or need, a lot of gear.

Vow of Poverty is not meant to replace equipment. After all, someone who uses equipment needs equipment, whereas someone with innate abilities, doesn't. It's meant to take the bite off. However, I think it's an obvious "take this Feat" for a Monk, whereas it's essentially unavailable to a playable Arcane Acher or Fighter greatsword specialist. The Monk trades in his bracers of defense for a free bonus. I think it would have worked a lot better as an Ascetic three-level class.

 

[ruleslawyer]

There are basically two kinds of things magic items can do for you. They can give you More, or they can give you something New...
[SNIP]

All true, and nothing new.

To put it simply, a Llamasu with a VOP is not any worse off than a Llamasu without one, simply because they don't tend to use, or need, a lot of gear.

This, OTOH, I completely disagree with. A lammasu (they're not Welsh ) PC that doesn't use its full allotment of gear is not an ECL x character; it's an ECL (x-y) character, where y>0. The fact is that 88k worth of equipment is 88k worth of equipment whether you're character level 12 with no LA or character level 4 with +8 LA. A lammasu can use stat-boosting items, tomes, mantles of SR; in fact, all of the items that VoP's benefits appear to replace.

Vow of Poverty is not meant to replace equipment. After all, someone who uses equipment needs equipment, whereas someone with innate abilities, doesn't. It's meant to take the bite off.

I don't understand what your point is here. VoP replaces the benefits of having magic items: i.e., equipment. A character that is weapon or armor-dependent incurs a higher sacrifice to get this feat's benefits than one who isn't, but ultimately, a +x enhancement bonus to an ability score, some SR, and a DR-piercing capability are just straightforward compensations for the lack of a belt/headband/gloves, a mantle, and an amulet, respectively. IOW, VoP does serve as an equipment replacement; it's just that the kind of equipment replaced by VoP has a different effect on different kinds of character. If you're looking for VoP to replace weapons, one-shot magic items, armor, or scrolls, you're SOL; if you're looking for it to replace stat-boost items and amulets of mighty fists (as most monks are), you're in luck.

In any case, the point is that VoP's application differs on the kind of character to whom it's applied, not that character's ECL. A vampire fighter gets much less mileage out of VoP than does, say, a human monk of the same ECL. You used the example of a hobgoblin; do you think a hob fighter/rogue really gets more benefit out of VoP than his human counterpart? The differences between character type (equipment-dependent vs. non-equipment dependent) are much more serious than any difference between LA creatures and non-LA creatures.

 

[pawsplay]

If you're looking for VoP to replace weapons, one-shot magic items, armor, or scrolls, you're SOL; if you're looking for it to replace stat-boost items and amulets of mighty fists (as most monks are), you're in luck.

In any case, the point is that VoP's application differs on the kind of character to whom it's applied, not that character's ECL. A vampire fighter gets much less mileage out of VoP than does, say, a human monk of the same ECL.

Game balance is not the only issue. You can't base it on ECL because it just makes no sense. There's no question Assimir make better Sorcerers than do Half-Orcs. There's no way to make it work otherwise. Notice the lack of the Brute Spellcasting Feat that allows you to use your Str for spellcasting purposes. Some characters are sub-optimal because the concept is sub-optimal.

You can't have VOP draw its power from your lack of equipment, because that makes no sense. It has to come from your personal strength.

At the bottom of it, I dislike any Feat that has such a profoundly different value for a human Monk versus an Assamir Paladin. It is better than the Forsaker, because it doesn't encourage the same illogical behavior. It still has whack results on the game. One Feat should not be burdened with the responsibility of eliminating an entire class of resource management for a PC.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Basing it on ECL makes plenty of sense. First off, I fail to understand how your example has anything to do with game balance. What you're stating is that some character concepts are more viable than others; that has nothing to do with the fact that individual game concepts need to be balanced. A half-orc is a worse sorcerer than an aasimar, but a better barbarian. That's the balance.

As far as "mak[ing] sense" goes: Well, from a conceptual viewpoint, VoP is probably better based on what you sacrifice than on what your character level is. From the sacrifice perspective, an ECL 12 character sacrifices a constant amoung of wealth in a campaign run according to the DMG wealth-by-level guidelines, regardless of his LA; thus, there's no reason why he shouldn't receive the same benefits regardless of its LA. Conversely, from a balance perspective, an ECL 12 character faces precisely the same kinds of challenges regardless of his LA; thus, the power he needs is the same. Basing VoP benefits on character level irrespective of ECL thus doesn't "make sense" either from a balance perspective or a thematic perspective. Instead, you're trying to base the benefits on character level, which is just as arbitrary a concept in-game as is ECL, without providing either an in-game OR game balance justification. Doesn't really work.