Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[Thanee]

Yeah, had a thread here once, when I thought a bit about the possibilities, I also noticed the immense lack of Exalted Feats (and I was quite disappointed to hear that there are non in Complete Divine).

Some characters will not have ANYTHING to do with those bonus feats by level 10 or so. And EVERY single exalted character will end up with exactly the same feats (plus some class specific ones). Quite pathetic.

As a DM I would simply allow to invent new feats, as long as they are within the boundaries and the spirit of the exalted rules.

Bye
Thanee

 

[rushlight]

Bah, the person who did that fudged numerous times and artifically inflated the costs.

For example, they priced all the feats at 10,000 gp. Anyone who actually plays a VoP will quickly (and by that I mean after the third feat or so) run out of useful Exalted feats. In the game I DM, I allowed a player the VoP - and he was 20th level. He had two or three feats that were useful, the rest were like "+1 to a roll once a day" (worse than a luckstone - and that's a cheap item!) or "20ft nimbus of light" (woo - you glow) or feats that he took, but never really used. 10k per is outright ludicrus.

Next, the person kept increasing the costs of magic items by +100% with the theory that the effects don't take up item slots. That's fine if the character can keep the abilities gained from VoP and then add on more items - but it's the Vow of freakin' Poverty. Those item slots are lost - so why should you double the gold costs for those abilities?

In short, the person who wrote this rubbish 1) has no ability to accurately judge the balance of the feat, and 2) obviously has never used it or allowed it's use, and last 3) had a clear opinion before staging his slanted view.

I've played using the VoP. I've DMed a game with a 20th level VoP. It's not unbalanced - it's not even that good. The player who took it only lasted about 15 sessions before he got tired of having only a set list of abilities, and no chance for switching abilities based on the current threat. He also really missed the fun of finding treasure and playing with new magical toys. In fact, the VoP made him usually less useful in combat, since the other players could optimize themselves for the enemy at hand, while he was stuck with the same "items".

As for my experience playing the VoP, it was entertaining for a while, but I probably wouldn't do it again. But I can assure you that as long as you are using the standard treasure rules, a VoP character will not (under usual circumstances) be unbalanced.

At least I tested this feature before pronouncing my opinion on it.

 

[Thanee]

Good catch with the body slot pricing.

The feats I think are ok with that price tag. Some are better, some are worse, and you never know how many more exalted feats will appear in various sources, so a general price tag is a fine abstraction here. That part is surely not totally unreasonable.

Anyways, your experiences mirror my line of thinking, the extreme unflexibility is a huge drawback, that easily counters the huge advantage of never having your stuff stolen.

It looks very powerful in theory for sure (just like the Mystic Theurge ), but it surely wouldn't be that bad in practice, because of the various reasons mentioned above (by me and others), unless some crazy mind would allow it unaltered in a seriously low-magic campaign, where you gain only a fraction of the standard wealth per level normally. Not hard to spot the discrepancy here.

Bye
Thanee

 

[ForceUser]

I've just started playing a VoP monk, about six sessions now. I wouldn't have seriously considered playing a monk without taking this feat - which could either mean VoP is too good or monks aren't good enough. In any event, aside from my character's overpoweringly good stats - I rolled sickeningly well - I tend to agree that VoP might be too good, if your DM does not challenge your character with moral and ethical debates. After all, the exalted path is a hard one to walk. Sometimes it should be very difficult to stay on that path as you sort through choices that may or may not be the best or right thing. And as it says in the book, if you fail to live up to exalted standards, you lose your abilities and never regain them. Think about that folks - never regain them. So once an exalted character screws up, that's it, he can never go back. Given that, I think that while the abilities of the VoP are indeed potent and perhaps even overpowered, if your DM is doing his job you will never feel completely secure in your powers as your character doubts himself and struggles to do the right thing. Perhaps some feel that you can't balance mechanics verses role-playing, but I think that if a DM fails to challenge the role-playing requirements of an exalted character he's missing the point. Hanging onto one's exalted powers should not be a given. It should be a constant trial. If a player is up to the role-playing challenge, then by all means, walk the exalted path.

 

[Gort]

Anyone else think that a cloistered cleric (from unearthed arcana) with the Vow of Poverty would be really cool?

He's not a fighter, just an unarmed holy man (who's actually educated and stuff, and has more than 2 skill points per level). But if he meets a demon, he can bring down the wrath of God on their heads. And, he adventures to better the lot of the kids back at his orphanage or something.

I think that'd be a nice character to play - and balanced with the regular cleric in terms of combat power, I believe.

 

[Thanee]

I've just started playing a VoP monk, about six sessions now.

Starting level?

In case the level is still fairly low, I'd wait until your character has advanced for 8 or 10 levels, only then you'll really feel the consequences, which come from the preselection of abilities and the considerable lack of decent exalted feats.

Other than that, you mention a good point with the constant trial. Being exalted shouldn't be taken lightly. Players that are not willing to roleplay such a character should stay away from it.

As I said somewhere else, the character did not swear the vow to gain nice abilities in the first place, but rather because it was the path to enlightenment he chose to follow. The nice abilities should be seen as a reward for his faithfulness and as reassurance for the chosen path, but not a necessity.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Particle_Man]

So, would a Psion with VoP be ok? And would a Psion with VoP be able to have a psi-crystal? (Is that an item, or a creature?)

 

[Scion]

the psicrystal has no real value, it is a class feature, and it is close enough to being a creature.

If a psion could not have the psicrystal then a wizard could not have a familiar, a druid could not have an animal companion, and most/any spell/power that made an item temporarily would be unuseable.

 

[ForceUser]

Starting level?

In case the level is still fairly low, I'd wait until your character has advanced for 8 or 10 levels, only then you'll really feel the consequences, which come from the preselection of abilities and the considerable lack of decent exalted feats.

We started at 3rd and are currently 5th. I don't know if I agree with the "considerable lack of exalted feats" with regard to the monk class specifically, though. Perhaps there isn't room for much variation, but the exalted feats that are germane to the class - sacred ki strike, holy ki strike, fist of the heavens, exalted spell resistance - are all superb and will greatly enhance a monk's effectiveness verses evil creatures. I do agree that at certain levels exalted feat choices are quite limited, and that on the balance exalted feats are often not as compelling as many PHB feats, but I would argue that since a creature with VoP is gaining bonus feats where he had none previously, even feats such as the "Vow" series are appealing in that you're gaining something you wouldn't have normally had.

I believe this even in the current homebrew campaign I play the exalted monk in, where the DM has removed alignments and the inherent evil nature of mortal creatures. In his homebrew paradigm, only outsiders and creatures closely connected to Tainted sources of power - evil gods, demons and the like - are considered "evil" for the purposes of detect evil, protection from evil, the paladin's smite evil power, etc. But even given this general reduction in the applicability of "vs. evil" powers in my DM's homebrew, many bonus exalted feats are still enormously useful. Touch of Golden Ice, for instance, which I took as the 1st-level bonus exalted feat, applies verses each and every Evil or undead creature touched. Although the save DC is a relatively weak 14, over the course of a long campaign the feat becomes reasonable - often saved against by outsiders, but often failed against by undead, who aren't renowned for fort saves. When it lands the monk is essentially gaining a +0 to +3 bonus to hit verses his foe. Subtle, but not insignificant.

 

[Thanee]

...then a wizard could not have a familiar...

Well a wizard, or let's say a sorcerer to be more realistic, who picks up VoP at first level, cannot have a familiar, as he cannot own the 100 gp worth of material to be used up in the summoning process.

Bye
Thanee