D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Well, Rotten Fate is definitely ruled out, because its description mentions what happens to a creature "killed by this magic" - so it's explicitly defined as magical.
Yeah, Rotten Fate is definitely magical by the Sage Advice guidelines, which is why I didn’t include it in the list of his abilities that are not magical by those guidelines (which to reiterate are Flight of the Damned, Vile Teleport, Dread Counterspell, and Fell Rebuke).

It’s certainly possible that this is intended. Maybe Vecna has some innate means of conjuring flying spectral entities, teleporting, and negating spells that are not magical. That seems weird to me, but not out of the question. Dread Counterspell and Fell Rebuke both mention uttering some sort of word of power, so maybe that’s the angle they’re going with - the words themselves are naturally empowered rather than magically manipulating the weave. That explaination would be easier to swallow if the various Power Words weren’t spells though.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
In terms of "is Vecna's teleport magical?", the only thing I can offer is.... look at the MM, there is no mention of teleports as a movement mode (in the very front of the book). That would suggest to me that teleporting is not something mundane creatures can do, and can only be performed with some kind of magic. There is also the obvious notion of "if teleporting isn't magic I don't know what is"
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The only feature he has that might IMO be allowed is Dread Counterspell (which personally I wouldn't since it has Counterspell but whatever).

For the rest:
  • Flight of the Damned "conjures". How does he conjure these "spectral entities" if not with magic? It sounds in many ways like Spirit Guardians, but a more offensive one-shot.
  • Rotten Fate has "by this magic" (sniped by @MarkB) in the description.
  • Vile Teleport actually has "teleport" in the description, as does Fell Rebuke. How does he "teleport" without magic? Both of these are creating the effects of a spell (misty step, teleport, etc.), failing the second (?) criteria.
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It is a major weakness of Vecna: without magic, he is pretty pathetic really (as a CR 20+ foe I mean...).
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I personally would rule that IDS does not work in an anti-magic field....I mean how else are you producing radiant damage....is your sword just always radioactive or something?
It's described as powered by "divine might" - I mean, that sounds like magic to me, but maybe it's such baked-in magic that it surpasses the Anti-Magic field in the same way that Vecna's UNDEAD NATURE (also magic) doesn't suddenly turn him into a pile of bones when he steps in the field.
 

The only feature he has that might IMO be allowed is Dread Counterspell (which personally I wouldn't since it has Counterspell but whatever).

For the rest:
  • Flight of the Damned "conjures". How does he conjure these "spectral entities" if not with magic? It sounds in many ways like Spirit Guardians, but a more offensive one-shot.
  • Rotten Fate has "by this magic" (sniped by @MarkB) in the description.
  • Vile Teleport actually has "teleport" in the description, as does Fell Rebuke. How does he "teleport" without magic? Both of these are creating the effects of a spell (misty step, teleport, etc.), failing the second (?) criteria.
  • The SAC doesn't say anything about "conjures." The ability does not meet any of the criteria.
  • I don't know how he teleports without magic. I also don't know how he remains alive when his body is dead without magic, or how a dragon shoots lightning out of its mouth.
  • The SAC draws a distinction between "magic" and "supernatural." Some abilities are properties of a supernatural nature but aren't explicitly magical. Per the SAC, only abilities that are explicitly magical are suppressed by the field.
  • I'd happily accept your interpretation in a real game.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
The other three are magical, since they have spell names in their description, and assuming we allow that the name of the ability counts as "in the description."
Sorry I somehow missed the bolded part when I initially replied. Personally I wouldn’t consider the name of an ability to be part of its description, but I suppose that’s a debatable point.
 

Stalker0

Legend
But he optimized (maybe white roomed is a better word) the situation. Assuming both characters win initiative, assuming Vecna hasn't scryed them beforehand and was ready etc. to prove his point.
If he was using a full assortment of characters and magic items I could see the argument, now we have to get nitpicky about X, Y, and Z. But I do think using two basic fighters without a lot of thought into their builds, can clap a CR 26 BBEG without even much thought....is a pretty good example that your monster might need some work. Sure he gave the fighters initiative, he also gave them average rolls (maybe they could have gotten a crit or above average damage). The point is...there is a reasonable % of the time that Vecna gets 1 round killed by just two characters.

Effectively what you are saying is...."Vecna needs some special handling to actually be effective against even a basically made character"....which to me is not the point of a CR26. I shouldn't need a death lair to make a CR that high last more than a round, maybe two.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
A regular caster with a regular Counterepell CAN'T do what Vecna can do, it's NOT the same wording.

If SOMEHOW a character was able to mimic dread Counterepell then yes they could.

Vecna can tell they're casting a spell by the way their eyes glaze and their brow furrows.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
In terms of "is Vecna's teleport magical?", the only thing I can offer is.... look at the MM, there is no mention of teleports as a movement mode (in the very front of the book). That would suggest to me that teleporting is not something mundane creatures can do, and can only be performed with some kind of magic. There is also the obvious notion of "if teleporting isn't magic I don't know what is"
I mean, what’s a wormhole if not teleportation? and that’s a real thing that could theoretically exist in real life. One could come up with some sort of explanation about stepping through an extradimensional space that has different physical properties rather than manipulating the weave with magic.
 

Stalker0

Legend
  • I don't know how he teleports without magic. I also don't know how he remains alive when his body is dead without magic, or how a dragon shoots lightning out of its mouth.
This is probably the best counterpoint to my arguments that "of course teleports are magical". At the end of day, we already accept that some forms of magic (aka what keeps undead going) just keeps on trucking in an anti-magic field. So once you accept that, its really not a question of "is teleporting magical"....because of course it is, the real question is "is it the kind of magic actually blocked by a anti-magic field?"
 

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