D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

The Rotten Fate/Afterthought stabby-stabby combo is powerful for finishing off a foe. I think Rotten Fate would be better if the requirement was reducing a creature to 0 hp instead of killing them, due to death saves making that hard to do in a fight. I don't see Flight of the Damned as very useful TBH. It is low damage, and the frightened condition disadvantage isn't great with Vecna's (sort of) low AC.
Remember Frightened also prevents them from moving closer to him.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
I actually wouldn't mind going 20th level against vecna again, and try it without the antimagic/grapple trick, just to see how well 20th level players go against him now that we have some experience running vecna. I think the 20th level characters will still trounce, but Vecna did do a lot better in the 16th level fight than I expected, so maybe we give him a chance to regain some street cred.
 

Stalker0

Legend
If we do go 20th level, I'll throw in this guy: Sir Arthur Damless.

ddb.ac/characters/77258905/qRru8O

Sword and Board, champion fighter, aka just run of the mill balanced fighter.
 

Sulicius

Explorer
I just finished running Vecna with the book against a party of 3 highly equipped characters (each had an artifact and reams of things from the campaing they finished two months back) and he beat them, only dropping to 127hp at one point. I got a lot of use out of the dungeon I ran him in, where all of the corridors and cover allowed him to stop quite a few enemies from attacking. When I dominated the barbarian, the other two fled at <50 hp.
We really missed that 4th player, but he had to drop out :(.
I will say, playing Vecna feels awesome. Zipping around, dispelling Heroes Feast and staying ahead of his foes was tons of fun.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
If people want to play another battle out, I would be happy (with the holiday weekend coming up) to run it.

Here is what I propose:

  • 20th level
  • No multiclassing
  • Adding magic items: each PC gets two uncommon and one rare (and three common if you really want them...). You can exchange all your magic items for one very rare. But Vecna will have the Book of Vile Darkness with him this time.
  • I will prep a new "lair" area for Vecna as well.
  • I will replace some spell choices in the stat block with other spells, but will not grant additional spells or uses--just substitutions.
  • We will use the established rulings from the prior combats.
There might be more to come. Would anyone be interested?
 


Stalker0

Legend
If people want to play another battle out, I would be happy (with the holiday weekend coming up) to run it.

Here is what I propose:

  • 20th level
  • No multiclassing
  • Adding magic items: each PC gets two uncommon and one rare (and three common if you really want them...). You can exchange all your magic items for one very rare. But Vecna will have the Book of Vile Darkness with him this time.
  • I will prep a new "lair" area for Vecna as well.
  • I will replace some spell choices in the stat block with other spells, but will not grant additional spells or uses--just substitutions.
  • We will use the established rulings from the prior combats.
There might be more to come. Would anyone be interested?
I'm game for the book of vile darkness, though I say we keep the spells he has the same. I think the goal is to assess Vecna as presented. I'm fine using the book as that was included, or maybe the lair from the adventure we were giving. But if we start swapping out his spells....well now its just a different statblock, and we aren't really testing "vecna as presented".
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
I'll play a cleric if any of the OGs are out. Though I think a lot of it (appropriately, but ironically) comes down to the spells he has.
I won't play a PC, so you can certainly have "my slot" for a character if you want.

I'm game for the book of vile darkness, though I say we keep the spells he has the same. I think the goal is to assess Vecna as presented. I'm fine using the book as that was included, or maybe the lair from the adventure we were giving. But if we start swapping out his spells....well now its just a different statblock, and we aren't really testing "vecna as presented".
While I understand your point, I think part of having Vecna as a BBEG is also knowing the DM can change things.

This is why I would like to keep the same spell levels (e.g. 1/day: one 6th, one 7th, one 8th), but be able to swap out the spells themselves. So, it is the same statblock, as much as a normal lich is the same statblock if I change the lich's listed spells (because many are subpar).

Also, the lair from the adventure is weak IMO, especially for a villain like Vecna. With a published adventure, you know what to expect (and I'm sure many have read it...), but with a new one you don't go in knowing what to expect.

I think the adding magic items for PCs, for example, is more representative of most games.

Anyway, using the statblock as presented has already shown certain strengths and weaknesses.

I really have no desire to just run the same scenario again, knowing the issues and strengths.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
As a DM, I really do not like the "ready an action to release it so I can't be countered" tactic. It feels against the intentions of the game, and grants the PC's another advantage Vecna doesn't have because he'd lose out on attacking with Afterthought.
On the other....it does feel pretty cheesy, I don't like the "mouthfeel" of it.
Although it is a "cheap move" against Vecna, he was able to use it himself. And for him, with 3 reactions, he still had 2 remaining for other things later in the round.

Counterspell is an issue IMO because it is automatic against equal or lower level spells. It should require a check, regardless of level.

Anyway, until it gets changed, it is the only method of defeating counterspell, and has been noted it eats up your concentration, and if the trigger never occurs you lose the spell anyway. This technique also stops the counterspell-counterspell annoyance. 🤷‍♂️

Woops! (Didn't matter in the end anyway).
Actually, if it applied to all the damage, Broodhuz would have survived the turn anyway--but the outcome was pretty much inevitable at that point.

The domination in our case proved to be exceptionally strong, but I think that was a particular weakness of our group (well me at least). Even with a +2 to the save I would least have a chance to break out (and now with advantage on the save + saves when I'm damaged) there is a chance to get out.
The barbarian was pretty much in the same boat as your sorcerer. Either of you could have been dominated automatically, but since you were flying (if you wanted) and could cast chill touch, Venca had to stop THAT from happening again. ;)

Also parties with big single strikes might have been able to break Vecna's concentration.
Well, they force him to use Legendary Resistance anyway. (Which certainly is important in its own way, of course!)

I do like the idea of giving him shield, even if its just 1/day. I think that rounds him out a bit, prevents an alpha strike, gives him just a little chance to get his mojo going (which is pretty strong).
His AC is pathetic IMO. If a caster in the party can get a 20+ AC routinely, and Vecna can't, that is a major liability!

Giving him shield at least gives him the option, at would cost him a valuable reaction!

Otherwise, I think he's just too reliant on his teleport for durability.
Which is too limited IMO. 30 feet is pretty weak and PCs were able to still follow him enough. I felt like I was using his Fell Rebuke all the time.

Looking back at my battle analysis, in 4 rounds he used 10 Fell Rebukes and 2 Dread Counterspells, and he used his reaction once to release the Dominate Monster. So, a lot of Fell Rebukes... :(

Remember Frightened also prevents them from moving closer to him.
Yeah, I know, but at this level it isn't as important IMO, but might be more useful in the proper scenario... :unsure:

On the Book of Vile Darkness it's also stated to contain any spells the DM wants, so it can be used to give Vecna some more spells.
But this goes back to an issue with the statblock---he has no spell slots to cast spells with!

So, how would that work, now? It was a reason why I suggested substituting some of the spells he has, which also removes player knowledge a bit from the situation.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I won't play a PC, so you can certainly have "my slot" for a character if you want.


While I understand your point, I think part of having Vecna as a BBEG is also knowing the DM can change things.

This is why I would like to keep the same spell levels (e.g. 1/day: one 6th, one 7th, one 8th), but be able to swap out the spells themselves. So, it is the same statblock, as much as a normal lich is the same statblock if I change the lich's listed spells (because many are subpar).

Also, the lair from the adventure is weak IMO, especially for a villain like Vecna. With a published adventure, you know what to expect (and I'm sure many have read it...), but with a new one you don't go in knowing what to expect.

I think the adding magic items for PCs, for example, is more representative of most games.

Anyway, using the statblock as presented has already shown certain strengths and weaknesses.

I really have no desire to just run the same scenario again, knowing the issues and strengths.
Fair enough.

Maze is a solid single target knockout.
Crown of stars is a great damage augment for more pain.
Mass suggestion could be super nasty
 
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DND_Reborn

Legend
If we do go 20th level, I'll throw in this guy: Sir Arthur Damless.

ddb.ac/characters/77258905/qRru8O

Sword and Board, champion fighter, aka just run of the mill balanced fighter.
Not that it matters much, but how did you get your ability scores?

By my calculations, you have an extra point from someplace I can't account for... 🤷‍♂️

Fair enough.
Cool, thanks for understanding.

Crown of stars is a great damage augment for more pain.
His bonus action is better used for Vile Teleport in most cases, though, I would think.

That's the thing. I kinda want to know what I'm going to get hit with before I decide if I want to spend the time on making a character. :D
AH, but that's the point of changing things... your PC would most likely not know what to expect. ;)
 

Stalker0

Legend
Not that it matters much, but how did you get your ability scores?

By my calculations, you have an extra point from someplace I can't account for... 🤷‍♂️


Cool, thanks for understanding.


His bonus action is better used for Vile Teleport in most cases, though, I would think.


AH, but that's the point of changing things... your PC would most likely not know what to expect. ;)
Not sure, I just made him straight from the creator. Regular human so +1 to all stats, point buy, all ability point bumps with no feats.

On vile teleport vs crown of stars, I agree but Vecna doesn’t have any bonus action damage, so if he’s not really hurt it’s a good offensive buff. Might be good in the opening round as his prep spell. Realistically he’s probably not casting a lot of spells anyway, as the rotten fate + afterthought combo is so good. So I guess it’s more a question of the best pregame spell to have on.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Not sure, I just made him straight from the creator. Regular human so +1 to all stats, point buy, all ability point bumps with no feats.
So weird, I did the same thing but only got CHA 12, not 13...

1656545598330.png


Like I said, it doesn't make a difference (same modifier), but you had to get it from someplace... :cautious: ;)

On vile teleport vs crown of stars, I agree but Vecna doesn’t have any bonus action damage
VT does do offensive damage, even if only 3d6, but he can hit as many creatures as he can in that 15 feet range...

I'll look through the spells, but off-hand I can't think of many that beat VT for healing, movement, and damage--even if minor. 🤷‍♂️
 






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