D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

On the book of Vile Darkness Granting any spell. Vecna's lack of Spell slots does not matter, you can just give him what you want. Like Time Stop 1/day.

Time Stop is fitting for Vecna as well, so I say the Book if you are using it should grant that to him.
 

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Sulicius

Explorer
Ready doesn't stop the spell from being countered. Vecna just has to counter the spell when the action is readied, not when released.

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."
Yeah, which is a weird meta way of getting around one of Vecna’s abilities.
As a DM I would count releasing the spell as casting the spell. I don’t like this kind of gameplay and it rewards my players for abusing rules. I want my players to win by abusing the world, not mechanics.
It is RAW, in truth.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Yeah, which is a weird meta way of getting around one of Vecna’s abilities.
As a DM I would count releasing the spell as casting the spell. I don’t like this kind of gameplay and it rewards my players for abusing rules. I want my players to win by abusing the world, not mechanics.
It is RAW, in truth.
So the RAW has two somewhat competing notes:

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs."

You do cast the spell as a part of the readied action, that much is crystal clear. You begin that casting at that point, and not later on when you release the energy. However, now let's look at the text for counterspell:

"Reaction: A creature in the process of casting a spell"

So the text does not say "a creature that begins to cast a spell", it effectively says that at any point of the casting, you could activate the reaction.

And so the question then becomes, "Is the release of spell energy in any way part of the casting of a spell?". Your interpretation of that informs how you would rule as a DM.

I would argue that the release of the spell energy IS a part of the casting the spell. If you don't agree with that, there are a few consequences that you may not like:

  • The spell's target must be in range at the time you ready a spell. Since a spell's target is required to be in the range at the time of casting, if you rule that casting is "concluded" before the release of energy step, then in theory the only way the spell can function is if your ultimate target is already in range, and if its a target, must be in line of sight and effect.
  • The spell's duration begins to tick before the spell's effect kicks in. Duration also begins after the casting of a spell, and so any rounds spent holding a spell for a readied action count against the duration of the spell.

However, ruling that casting is "ongoing" while your holding the energy also comes with its own baggage:
  • Components: You could interpret that since components are required during a spell's casting....they must be maintained during the "holding of energy". Example if you move into a silence effect and are holding a verbal spell, that spell is no longer a viable cast and you would not be able to cast it.
 
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FitzTheRuke

Legend
So the RAW has two somewhat competing notes:

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs."

You do cast the spell as a part of the readied action, that much is crystal clear. You begin that casting at that point, and not later on when you release the energy. However, now let's look at the text for counterspell:

"Reaction: A creature in the process of casting a spell"

So the text does not say "a creature that begins to cast a spell", it effectively says that at any point of the casting, you could activate the reaction.

And so the question then becomes, "Is the release of spell energy in any way part of the casting of a spell?". Your interpretation of that informs how you would rule as a DM.

I would argue that the release of the spell energy IS a part of the casting the spell. If you don't agree with that, there are a few consequences that you may not like:

  • The spell's target must be in range at the time you ready a spell. Since a spell's target is required to be in the range at the time of casting, if you rule that casting is "concluded" before the release of energy step, then in theory the only way the spell can function is if your ultimate target is already in range, and if its a target, must be in line of sight and effect.
  • The spell's duration begins to tick before the spell's effect kicks in. Duration also begins after the casting of a spell, and so any rounds spent holding a spell for a readied action count against the duration of the spell.

However, ruling that casting is "ongoing" while your holding the energy also comes with its own baggage:
  • Components: You could interpret that since components are required during a spell's casting....they must be maintained during the "holding of energy". Example if you move into a silence effect and are holding a verbal spell, that spell is no longer a viable cast and you would not be able to cast it.
I agree with all of this. As a DM, I'm very "let them do as they like" except when it comes to cheese. I mean, if a player really cares that they "get away with" their cheezy trick, I'll probably shrug and let them do it (at least during the game) but I'll argue against it (when arguing is appropriate. Like say, here on a discussion board!)
 

The spell's target must be in range at the time you ready a spell. Since a spell's target is required to be in the range at the time of casting, if you rule that casting is "concluded" before the release of energy step, then in theory the only way the spell can function is if your ultimate target is already in range, and if its a target, must be in line of sight and effect.
Alternatively, could you Ready a "touch" spell when you're next to the target, then "release the energy" when the readied action is triggered, regardless of how far away the target now is. Is that how we're ruling it?
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Alternatively, could you Ready a "touch" spell when you're next to the target, then "release the energy" when the readied action is triggered, regardless of how far away the target now is. Is that how we're ruling it?
Of course that's not how we're ruling it. This is the point, I believe, that Stalker0 is trying to make. You're either 1) Still casting the spell (and therefore it can be countered); or 2) weird things happen.
 


Sulicius

Explorer
Sorry, I don’t mean to start a rules discussion. I think the readying of the spell to counteract counterspell is RAW and can be allowed for sure.

I will talk about it with my players and see if they are attached to this strategy, but otherwise I will just ban it from my table personally. I think it’s healthier for play at my table.

I rarely use counterspell anyway.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I agree with all of this. As a DM, I'm very "let them do as they like" except when it comes to cheese. I mean, if a player really cares that they "get away with" their cheezy trick, I'll probably shrug and let them do it (at least during the game) but I'll argue against it (when arguing is appropriate. Like say, here on a discussion board!)
That's it! Now Kaligan is going to summon cheese. Limburger I say! Then I can see which smells worse. The cheese or the giants.
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
Ready doesn't stop the spell from being countered. Vecna just has to counter the spell when the action is readied, not when released.

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."
The poster didn't mention it, but the tactic is more about casting behind total cover, and the moving out to release it. With total cover, it can't be countered.

I mean which one? Vecna will counter a number of them, and can dispel others if he needs to. I guess if you do the behind the pillar + a meteor swarm could mess him up pretty good.
Invulnerability is the biggest one IMO. At 9th level, dispelling it isn't automatic at all and it would lead to a Dread Counterspell/Counterspell battle. I know there are ways around it, but man it is a pain! ;)

Here is Lair actions if you want to use them
If I don't I will probably do something similar or look at general lich lair actions.

Here's [url="https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/77284892]Pyre[/url] the 20th Level Eladrin Rogue.
Looks ok. I find it funny that you have armor of necrotic resistance as well as @Greg Benage's cleric does. :D
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
Regarding using a Readied Action to Cast a Spell:

This discussion has got me thinking about one aspect I failed to consider before: you must be able to see a creature...

Under Ready Action, it says:
"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs."

Well, in the case of Chill Touch and Dominate Monster, if you are casting them as normal, you must be able to SEE the target. In the cases in the battles, the caster could not see the target due to total cover.

Now, for some spells, would this be an issue? Take fireball:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.

You could point in the direction from behind cover, then move out from cover triggering the spell IMO.

Now, could it be countered at the point of release? I would argue no. The spell has been cast as normal. The casting is over. You are just holding the energy at this point.

My understanding has always been if you do not release the spell using your reaction prior to your next turn, the spell is lost, or at least if you take any other action. But in reviewing even that, I don't think that isn't really a RAW interpretation.

Now, if another caster has Counterspell Readied as well, that might do it.

Sorry, I don’t mean to start a rules discussion. I think the readying of the spell to counteract counterspell is RAW and can be allowed for sure.
No worries, it is an interesting point. If someone wants to start a new thread on it, like we have for other ruling points, please do so. If not, I might do it tonight when I get home from work.
 


MarkB

Legend
Personally, my interpretation would be that if you haven't yet released the spell and you're holding onto it, you're still casting it. To me, directing the spell towards its intended target is part of the process of casting it. So if you're in range to be Counterspelled at the moment the spell leaves your hand, you can get Counterspelled.
 

Now, for some spells, would this be an issue? Take fireball:

You could point in the direction from behind cover, then move out from cover triggering the spell IMO.
I don't think that's accurate. From the "Casting a Spell" rules:

A Clear Path to the Target

To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover.

If you place an area of Effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of ori⁠gin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
So you could "point in the direction" of the desired target point all you want, but if there's an obstruction in the way, you fireball yourself.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The poster didn't mention it, but the tactic is more about casting behind total cover, and the moving out to release it. With total cover, it can't be countered.
Thanks! From the responses I got and what I remembered of the map, I eventually figured that out. :p

After contemplating the responses for a bit, I think I'm in the camp of the release being part of casting the spell. When a spell is cast, the release of energy is the last part of the process. Readying the spell casts as normal, except that it holds the release.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Now, for some spells, would this be an issue? Take fireball:


You could point in the direction from behind cover, then move out from cover triggering the spell IMO.
The exact point in space, not direction would have to be chosen while behind cover, meaning you'd have to be able to see the final destination from the total cover. At that point you might as well just release the spell from behind cover since it's going to the same spot anyway. I suppose there might be some corner case scenarios where you'd pick a point in space to cast the spell with the trigger being when Vecna wanders within 20 feet of that point, but for the most part there'd be no point in holding the spell.

Edit: Never mind on this one. I just saw Greg's post and you can pick points you can't see. I'm not sure I agree with his interpretation, though. The obstruction portion seems to be talking about what happens if there is something in the way when the energy is released. If you move so there's no obstruction, there'd be no early detonation of the fireball.
Now, could it be countered at the point of release? I would argue no. The spell has been cast as normal. The casting is over. You are just holding the energy at this point.
Two things. First, it's interesting to me that outside of readied actions there are no rules for just casting a spell and holding the energy. Can I for instance cast a spell as normal and just hold the energy with concentration while we walk around the ruins, ready to cast it the instant we see a monster? Second, "You cast it as normal but..." When you have a "but," it's qualifying the prior portion. "I really hate to say bad things about Bob, but..." or "I don't eat crab mean, but..." and "I'm casting this spell normally, but..."

That's why I'm inclined to include it as part of the casting. The casting is normal, but... ;)
My understanding has always been if you do not release the spell using your reaction prior to your next turn, the spell is lost, or at least if you take any other action. But in reviewing even that, I don't think that isn't really a RAW interpretation.
Yeah. You maintain it with concentration and no actual duration is stated.
 

I just saw Greg's post and you can pick points you can't see. I'm not sure I agree with his interpretation, though. The obstruction portion seems to be talking about what happens if there is something in the way when the energy is released.
No, it's literally talking about an obstruction between you and the target point when you cast a spell. On @DND_Reborn's interpretation, the spell is cast behind total cover, i.e., when there is an obstruction between the caster and the target point. 🤷‍♂️
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No, it's literally talking about an obstruction between you and the target point when you cast a spell.
The intent is pretty clear. That statement intends that the effect be going off right then and impact the barrier. If you move, the barrier is not present when the effect happens. The specific Readied Action rule beats the general Clear Path to Target rule.
 

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