D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

The intent is pretty clear. That statement intends that the effect be going off right then and impact the barrier.
The intent, in my very strong opinion, is that you don't muddle the "Casting a Spell" rules with a literalist, RAW interpretation of the "Readying an Action" rules. My strongest objection is that we're choosing the literalist, RAW interpretation in one instance and then reconciling the obvious problems with that interpretation by an appeal to "intent" where it suits us.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
The intent, in my very strong opinion, is that you don't muddle the "Casting a Spell" rules with a literalist, RAW interpretation of the "Readying an Action" rules. My strongest objection is that we're choosing the literalist, RAW interpretation in one instance and then reconciling the obvious problems with that interpretation by an appeal to "intent" where it suits us.
And here is where we often get in trouble applying 3.5 mindset to 5e.

In 3.5, the game was built around a "legally stringent" version of the rules. The rules were designed to be the primary judge and jury, and the goal was a rule to cover as many scenarios as possible. Part of this mindset was that the rules were designed to be very cut and dry, and very specific. So in any case where things were debated, it was pretty reasonable that anything stated by RAW was often RAI....as the designers had taken the effort to right very specific rule sets. This is also why 3.5 had a lot of errata, any issue found was updated in the text again to keep it a clear legal record of how the gameplay was intended from the designers viewpoint.

5e pushes the arbitration more on the DM, and uses a "guidance and framework" model. The rules are more designed to get a DM comfortable handling various scenarios, and then the DM can take on the rest of the work of interpreting scenarios and applying reasonable rulings. This combined with the natural language 5e uses makes the rules a lot fuzzier. The reason that's important, while we can have this RAW arguments (which I found rather fun), it is harder to then take RAW and apply a RAI from the designers. The simple truth is, 5e's language is fuzzy enough that there are many cases where even though the rules say X, we can't really tell taht the designers imply X (whereas in 3.5 we could at least make that a reasonable starting point unless the devs directly spoke up and countered it).


All of that is a longwinded way of saying....just because we can make a strong RAW argument, we really can't say, "and therefore, that's what the designers intended".


The truth in this scenario is....the rules of casting are murky. There is no defined start and end point, and the nuances of a readied spell are murkier still. My guess....is that the designers didn't even consider the idea of readying a spell to avoid counterspell, it probably wasn't a discussion, and I doubt they wrote the ready rules with any notion of how it would be used against counterspell.

So there is no "official method" here, its just a question of which one is better for the table. Though I think I have made a good RAW argument to say why readying a spell doesn't stop counterspell....the real argument is....its just very cheesy and jenky. I think counterspell is too powerful, I hate the spell personally, but if I'm going to stop it, I would rather nerf or ban the spell than allow some jenky tactics to overwrite it.
 



DND_Reborn

Legend
The minor and major random properties can allow the casting of a spell at least once a day.
Yeah, but that isn't "the book can give you any spell" which is what a LOT of people keep saying. Even the major properties is limited to 7th level spells, so when someone suggests Time Stop or Meteor Swarm, it can't be from that...

Any way, @Greg Benage, @Maxperson, @Stalker0, and others, let's not muddle this thread with any further talk of Ready Action Casting and Counterspell, ok? I'll start a new thread if anyone wants to continue discussing it, but I think we've covered it (at least to my satisfaction) as it concerns further uses in the battles scenarios.
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
fine by me. honestly I would just make a clean thread for each run against vecna anyway, kicks things organized.
Well, @Greg Benage has informed me he is bowing out of the fight, so we still need two more participants.

I am working on the lair for Vecna now. I would like to run the next battle more like an actual adventure encounter instead of just a "Fight!" and go battle....
 





DND_Reborn

Legend
The new battle map is ready. I'll be running the fight through powerpoint and posting the images as usual, but I'll still uses Roll20 for the dice rolling.

If I can figure out how to do it in Roll20, I will run it there again, but I really have only used it for these fights.

The map won't be revealed until the fight begins. ;)

And I am totally up for running it as a new thread once we have players ready.
 

DorkForge

Explorer
The new battle map is ready. I'll be running the fight through powerpoint and posting the images as usual, but I'll still uses Roll20 for the dice rolling.

If I can figure out how to do it in Roll20, I will run it there again, but I really have only used it for these fights.

The map won't be revealed until the fight begins. ;)

And I am totally up for running it as a new thread once we have players ready.
What do you need help doing with Roll20? I DM two long term games in it a week and run workshops on it
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
Well, it has been almost 24 hours (or more probably) and there doesn't seem much interest for anyone else wanting to run a PC... :(

So, @FitzTheRuke and @Stalker0 do you both want to play two PCs? I know Fitz mentioned playing Malek or some version of rogue again and Stalker has a fighter. If either of you want cleric or wizard chime in.

I have the lair ready at this point and Vecna with substituted (equal level) spells and the Book of Vile Darkness. Since this is his "lair" he has lair actions as well. I'll post info once everyone is ready.

If anyone else would like to play a PC, please let us know! :D
 




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