Vulgar language in fantasy

[Mouseferatu]

It's quite obvius that when you're reading dialogue that takes place in a place that's on another plane of existence altogether that you're reading a translation, not a transcript.

Bingo.

That is exactly how I see it, both in fantasy literature and RPGs. Once you've accepted the fact that what you're reading is an English "translation," then everything but truly modern slang becomes not only acceptable, but--one could argue--more realistic than deliberate attempts to sound "old-fashioned."

This is also, BTW, why I have no objection to puns and word puzzles in fantasy and RPGs. Okay, so maybe in the Common tongue of Greyhawk, or the language of Steven Brust's Dragaeran Empire, "live" isn't an anagram for "evil," and "right" doesn't mean both "correct" and "the opposite of left." But those languages no doubt have their own homonyms and synonyms for use in such puzzles. So I simply assume that the puzzle that makes sense in English is standing in for one that makes sense in Common (or whatever), and move on. There has to be an element of suspension of disbelief for any fiction that takes place in an alien environment, and this sort of thing, IMO--in terms of puns, word games, and profanity/swearing/reasonable amounts of slang--falls squarely into that category.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I once went to this Renn Faire and saw this guy dressed as a fighter type (I say fighter type as what he did wasn't very knightly) verbally abuse this other person dressed up. Not once did his use a modernized curse word, but some of things he said were pretty bad (and funny).

I wish I could remember some of the things, but this was years ago. I just remember standing there laughing, waiting for the f word to slip out, but it didn't...

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

What do you think? I mean, people swear in real life, and few of them go to the effort to come up with creative but non-vulgar curses, so why is it so rare to see vulgar language in fantasy compared to other genres? Sure, the occasional "By Crom!" is fair, but I think Conan had to have some word in his vocabulary for situations when we would just exclaim, "Holy s***!" or "We are so f***ed."

When you talk about this subject you've got two competing drives. On one hand, because it's a fantasy world, you don't want everything that's said, and the WAY it's said, to be ported directly over from MODERN English. So it's not surprising that we would want to hear both older and entirely newly fabricated words.

On the other hand, because WE LIVE in a modern English world older words that might have been used for cursing just DO NOT have the same impact as they once might have. Language changes, and not just by aging but also from place to place. You can use words in Britain that have solid impact and are recognized as "cursing" to one degree or another that have no connotations whatsoever in America. And, what Shakespeare might have thought of as a vulgar curse no longer sounds to OUR modern ears as anything REMOTELY like a vulgar curse because we just don't talk like he did and haven't for HUNDREDS of years.

You get a similar problem if you're making up NEW curses and vulgarities - they don't hold the same impact as s... d... and f... do for us even if you want them to for your characters. Points made about fantasy being percieved as a childrens genre are certainly not to be discounted though I think it's less of a factor than the above.

If you were reading a fantasy novel and someone used the same sorts of swear words we use in our everyday life, what would you think? (Assume that the curses are being used in a reasonable way, and not in some Tarantino-esque marathon of obscenities.)

Tarantino relies a LOT on the f-word but at least its usage "fits" the characters who use it most. I think when you introduce curses and vulgarities into your fiction you've got several avenues to take but it's all a matter of choosing the least of the perceived evils. Go with modern curses and you risk breaking the verisimilitude, but the curses retain their modern impacts. Go with old curses and you hold on tighter to verisimilitude but the curses actually sound weak because of age. Go with entirely new fabricated curses and you can actually build greater verisimilitude but have to work hard to build and retain a frame of reference for them.

I think Firefly/Serenity had an excellent approach that was well-implemented, using something like "gorram" as a slurred and future-ised version of g...d..n, new slang like "shiny", and of course using Chinese phrases liberally throughout where most viewers had absolutely no knowledge of the exact translation but it was ALWAYS clear and emotionally impactful based on the context it was being used in.

 

[Kesh]

I think Firefly/Serenity had an excellent approach that was well-implemented, using something like "gorram" as a slurred and future-ised version of g...d..n, new slang like "shiny", and of course using Chinese phrases liberally throughout where most viewers had absolutely no knowledge of the exact translation but it was ALWAYS clear and emotionally impactful based on the context it was being used in.

Maybe it's just me, but I really couldn't follow it. Sure, I got the general idea that there was some word that was supposed to have some meaning, but I'm totally unfamiliar with (Mandarin?) Chinese. It was just gibberish to me, which was a bit jarring. I had less problem with "gorram," since I could parse what it was substituting for, just like Farscape's "frell" or Galactica's "frack."

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Maybe it's just me, but I really couldn't follow it. Sure, I got the general idea that there was some word that was supposed to have some meaning, but I'm totally unfamiliar with (Mandarin?) Chinese. It was just gibberish to me, which was a bit jarring. I had less problem with "gorram," since I could parse what it was substituting for, just like Farscape's "frell" or Galactica's "frack."

To each his own. "Frack" still sounds straight-up childish to my ears, since it's such an obvious attempt to be "naughty" without getting the censors all up in your face. At least the Chinese sounds genuine, even if we can't determine the precise meaning... and is STILL an attempt to be naughty without the censors pitching a fit Just a somewhat more refined way of doing it, IMO. YMMV, and all that jazz.

 

[Tonguez]

And the actual content of "how" people swear really doesn't change that much. I suspect you'd find that the references remain pretty similar: various taboo body parts, sexual acts, and excrement would be pretty much the basis just about anywhere.

Actually no. As I said earlier, in my culture references to body parts, sex and even excrement aren't traditionally considered vulgar (there is even a much beloved elder whose nickname meant 'excrement' (long story behind that)).

In my culture all the offensive words had to do with cannibalism things like "Your Brains" and "Your Boiled-Head"

I actually used them as inspiration for DnD curses so Orcs howl "Your Brains will fill my pot" and the worst Gnollish Curse means "I will eat the contents of your stomach"

 

[shilsen]

Bingo.

That is exactly how I see it, both in fantasy literature and RPGs. Once you've accepted the fact that what you're reading is an English "translation," then everything but truly modern slang becomes not only acceptable, but--one could argue--more realistic than deliberate attempts to sound "old-fashioned."

This is also, BTW, why I have no objection to puns and word puzzles in fantasy and RPGs. Okay, so maybe in the Common tongue of Greyhawk, or the language of Steven Brust's Dragaeran Empire, "live" isn't an anagram for "evil," and "right" doesn't mean both "correct" and "the opposite of left." But those languages no doubt have their own homonyms and synonyms for use in such puzzles. So I simply assume that the puzzle that makes sense in English is standing in for one that makes sense in Common (or whatever), and move on. There has to be an element of suspension of disbelief for any fiction that takes place in an alien environment, and this sort of thing, IMO--in terms of puns, word games, and profanity/swearing/reasonable amounts of slang--falls squarely into that category.

Get ... out ... of ... my ... HEAD!

 

[Felon]

Actually no. As I said earlier, in my culture references to body parts, sex and even excrement aren't traditionally considered vulgar (there is even a much beloved elder whose nickname meant 'excrement' (long story behind that)).

In my culture all the offensive words had to do with cannibalism things like "Your Brains" and "Your Boiled-Head"

I actually used them as inspiration for DnD curses so Orcs howl "Your Brains will fill my pot" and the worst Gnollish Curse means "I will eat the contents of your stomach"

Care to share that culture you're referring to?

 

[Felon]

This is also, BTW, why I have no objection to puns and word puzzles in fantasy and RPGs. Okay, so maybe in the Common tongue of Greyhawk, or the language of Steven Brust's Dragaeran Empire, "live" isn't an anagram for "evil," and "right" doesn't mean both "correct" and "the opposite of left." But those languages no doubt have their own homonyms and synonyms for use in such puzzles. So I simply assume that the puzzle that makes sense in English is standing in for one that makes sense in Common (or whatever), and move on.

Hmm. Interesting line of thought. I have often avoided puzzles for this very reason.

 

[Tonguez]

Care to share that culture you're referring to?

Tuwharetoa a subgroup of the New Zealand Polynesian (often called Maori)

the same people that brought 'the Haka' to Rugby