Wages, Salaries, and Earnings

[Nytmare]

Problem #376 with the game I'm piecing together.

I have four, first level characters in a low magic (see half wealth per level) world, and am trying to figure out what a workable base salary would be to convince them to explore and map out a barren stretch of bandit and monster infested badlands.

They would be tasked with mapping out anywhere between (roughly) 250-400 hexes surrounding a blossoming trade route, and I'm imagining that it's going to probably take them at least 2 game years to complete.

They would be getting payed in an "X gold per new area mapped" exchange. Each hex will take them anywhere from 1 to 3 days to map depending on the terrain, and whatever extra curricular activities they take part in. Bounties would be payed separately, and anything they find and can lay claim to would be theirs.

Expenses would come out of their own pockets, and would basically be food, rituals, and any replacement equipment or upgrades. Saving up for mounts should probably be an early game option, so I should balance out the book keeping so that the added speed of being on horse/camel/lizardback is a worth the extra upkeep. After the mount, the next big expense will probably be setting up a permanent base somewhere along the trade route.

In writing this out, the number I've worked myself around to so far is a base rate of 5-6 gold per hex mapped. What say ye, oh dwellers of the Enworlds?

 

[S'mon]

In writing this out, the number I've worked myself around to so far is a base rate of 5-6 gold per hex mapped. What say ye, oh dwellers of the Enworlds?

If that's per PC it looks about ok, that would be about 3gp per mapping day, 90gp for a month of mapping. It really depends on how dangerous the terrain is though.

If it's 5-6gp for the entire group, my feeling is that that is on the low side. 22.5gp/month isn't much more than what I'd expect elite troops to be paid (using 4e gp values) just for sitting in garrison and routine patrolling; you're asking for a lot more.

Another issue is that what seems a lot of money at 1st level will rapidly become trivial at high level, so don't rely on money as the main PC motivator. I'd suggest having the PCs be part of a scouting organisation. The other thing you can do is offer a very big pay off when scouting is complete, such as a % share of ownership in a merchant coster, or their own dominion Kingmaker style.

 

[Unwise]

First off, I very much like the idea. Have your read the Westmarches blog?

I would like to echo S'mon'S (extra capital in the interests of palindromes) comment that money is not a sustainable motivation. What if this route were like a silk road through Asia. Finding a better way, would make them very rich men. Consider the acclaims and titles that could flow too. By the end of it, they could be like Marco Polo etc.

Consider too, giving them some personal buy-in to the success of these trade routes. Maybe they are from merchant families or noble houses that want to pave the way. Maybe the paladin's religion has pilgrimages that take this route and many people die every year on the way.

A few of quick ideas:
- Some PC has ancestral holdings in the now lost areas of this land. Their family has a hold there which is probably overrun. For generations they have been sworn to protect this land, before being almost wiped out a couple of generations ago.

- Some PCs are adopted sons of a merchant prince who wants to see this place opened up. His own son is a lazy, entitled brat who he really loathes. So he has given this opportunity to the PCs. He has given them next to nothing and told them to forge their own way in the world. If they do, they will be his heirs and they can profit from this trade route. What is the son going to do about this?

- They discover evidence of old roads. Why did they become disused? Why does this old road go around that area rather than take the direct route through? If this trade route has been open so many times in the past by different cultures, why does it always close down and leave the place scattered with ruins?

- Like the Romans, some old civilization made lots of forts along the old roads (now buried). This gives nice places for monsters to live and ties in will with any history you want to put in.

Finally, as written D&D does not lend itself well to money motivation at all. After all, for the price of one epic level arrow you could hire a mercenary army and buy a small town. The economy is unapologetically gamist.

I would suggest not giving a cash value to magic items at all. This works well in a low-magic setting. They are rare things that people don't generally consider selling, so there is no standard pricing at all. That way you can make prices that make sense in the context of the world. Is a level 18 sword really worth as much as a map of this trade route?

 

[Nytmare]

If that's per PC it looks about ok, that would be about 3gp per mapping day, 90gp for a month of mapping.

I'm not sure anymore... It looks like I started off figuring for the individual, but then switched to the group midway, and then maybe went back to the individuals to check against the wealth per level guidelines.

Let's see if I can re-establish my original train of thought, and please forgive my sleep deprived rambling.

A group of 4 people only needs to spend 2 gold pieces a day to pay for food. If it takes them, on average, 2 days to fully map a hex, the base cost to the group (ignoring any other costs) is 4 gold per hex. Let's start by doubling it and see if it's worth the trouble for them. We would have 8 gold (per hex) times about 300 hexes, which equals only 2400 gold. That's about a 1/4 of what the wealth guidelines say a low magic, 4th level party of 4 should have.

3/4 low seems like it might be a lot to make up for in bonuses, bounties, rewards, and side ventures, but I don't think it's out of the question.

The next thing to check it up against would be equipment pacing. Let's assume that no one starts with a horse, and that's what I want to make the first monetary goal. If they're able to stick to those earlier numbers, and are gaining 4 gold every time they map a hex, that means that the entire group would be able to get horses (300 gold) in about 75 hexes. That I don't like. I was figuring it should be somewhere between 30-50.

Sooooo, working backwards from there, lets look at 12 gold per hex.
If they pinch every penny, that leaves them with a net of 8 gold per hex, and the group is able to save up 300 gold in 37.5 hexes. ...I think that works?

I'm envisioning an extremely book-keepy game, tracking rations and encumbrance, replacing lost mounts and pack animals, having to make decisions as to whether or not they sweep out an abandoned ruin and risk not getting back to the outpost before the paymaster leaves.

I'm trying really hard to make the money a motivating factor. To keep things tight, the players are going to be leveling a lot slower than normal. I'm expecting the entire mapping process to only carry them through to level 4.

The trading game and kingdom building are already a part of the big picture. I'll be lifting huge chunks out of Kingmaker.

 

[Nytmare]

First off, I very much like the idea. Have your read the Westmarches blog?

I have indeed!

I would like to echo S'mon'S (extra capital in the interests of palindromes) comment that money is not a sustainable motivation. What if this route were like a silk road through Asia. Finding a better way, would make them very rich men. Consider the acclaims and titles that could flow too. By the end of it, they could be like Marco Polo etc.

The money motivation is kind of one of the key points of the game. It's an exploration and resource management game that turns into a kingdom building game.

The game is set in the Scarred Lands, and the map is actually the motivating factor. The trade route is a pipeline of information to a monastery full of librarian monks, the goods are secondary to the (currently lost) knowledge of the area. There's definitely trade in and out, and the players will definitely make money there, but the game should never reach the point where the players are rolling in megabucks.

Finally, as written D&D does not lend itself well to money motivation at all. After all, for the price of one epic level arrow you could hire a mercenary army and buy a small town. The economy is unapologetically gamist.

I would suggest not giving a cash value to magic items at all. This works well in a low-magic setting. They are rare things that people don't generally consider selling, so there is no standard pricing at all. That way you can make prices that make sense in the context of the world. Is a level 18 sword really worth as much as a map of this trade route?

I doubt that we'll have to worry about any of that. The game will probably never leave the heroic tier. Magic items are incredibly rare and those that exist are usually cursed. Wars are fought over the few magic weapons that people know about, they aren't hawked at corner stores.

 

[Randomthoughts]

Expenses would come out of their own pockets, and would basically be food, rituals, and any replacement equipment or upgrades. Saving up for mounts should probably be an early game option, so I should balance out the book keeping so that the added speed of being on horse/camel/lizardback is a worth the extra upkeep. After the mount, the next big expense will probably be setting up a permanent base somewhere along the trade route.

In writing this out, the number I've worked myself around to so far is a base rate of 5-6 gold per hex mapped. What say ye, oh dwellers of the Enworlds?

Sounds like an interesting campaign! Off the top of my head, I'd consider:

* How dangerous each hex is (like [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] said - pun intended ). A major reason for this is how many combats PCs will enter and therefore how many consumables are used.

* Will you be using some armor degrading houserules? If so, more emphasis will be on PCs who could make their own weapons and armor.

* How much access will PCs have to necessities (food, water, gear) while out in the wild? I'm getting the sense that PCs will have the ability to forage and that water may not be much of a problem - but PCs may not know that - but getting (replacement) gear will probably have to wait until they return to civilization. Am I right?

* If this is the case, then what PCs bring with them will be critical, and therefore, weight and encumbrance rules will become more important. Again, this encourages PCs to fashion their own weapons/armors esp. consumables in the wild and well, mounts become paramount.

* Furthermore, PCs will experience a "feast and famine" situation, where they live off the land exploring (and fighting), but cash in only after they reach civilization. I think this point can't be emphasized enough. I originally thought you should translate things into a revenue and expense model per day but it will probably be best to do so per expedition (however long each takes).

* Will PCs have the opportunity to find stuff in the wild, and take things back - like treasure, "artifacts" or even body parts of exotic creatures to sell? Or will mapping be the main source of revenue?

* This would also mean that PCs are bankrolling themselves (at least intially). Given the risk that PCs would be taking, they may seek support from rich patrons (who could give them quests to explore a certain area or recover items like a family heirloom). Imagine all the wheeling-and-dealing possibilities here!

* Finally, if you want money to remain a motivator, I'd consider external expenses like taxes, licenses for this or that or even money spent at a tavern or brothel after a successful expedition.

 

[Nytmare]

* How dangerous each hex is (like @S'mon said - pun intended ). A major reason for this is how many combats PCs will enter and therefore how many consumables are used.

I was trying to avoid this tangent, but the game will primarily be a play by wiki/post game. To keep things sane, we're scrapping combat when we're playing online, and handling everything with Obsidian Skill Challenges. As such, there ain't going to be a lot of consumables being used.

* Will you be using some armor degrading houserules? If so, more emphasis will be on PCs who could make their own weapons and armor.

There is a possibility of it.

* How much access will PCs have to necessities (food, water, gear) while out in the wild? I'm getting the sense that PCs will have the ability to forage and that water may not be much of a problem - but PCs may not know that - but getting (replacement) gear will probably have to wait until they return to civilization. Am I right?

Yes there will be foraging, and depending on where they are, things will be harder or easier to find. A large chunk of the area they are exploring is a necromantically poisoned wasteland and magic blasted desert. There will be places where there's no game, and where the water is hard to find, and not always safe to drink.

Depending on what gear they want, there are only three reliable places to find it. It's about 200 miles between each of them, and there's nothing guaranteeing that what they want won't take the better part of a week to get to them.

* If this is the case, then what PCs bring with them will be critical, and therefore, weight and encumbrance rules will become more important. Again, this encourages PCs to fashion their own weapons/armors esp. consumables in the wild and well, mounts become paramount.

Yup.

* Furthermore, PCs will experience a "feast and famine" situation, where they live off the land exploring (and fighting), but cash in only after they reach civilization. I think this point can't be emphasized enough. I originally thought you should translate things into a revenue and expense model per day but it will probably be best to do so per expedition (however long each takes).

It's more than that. For the most part "civilization" is just an outpost, and there's still a level of separation between them, and the outside world. To cash in, they will need to be at the outpost when the paymaster makes his visit every 2 weeks. Equipment needs to be ordered and delivered. And all of these things are traveling along the trade route that they are there to establish and protect.

* Will PCs have the opportunity to find stuff in the wild, and take things back - like treasure, "artifacts" or even body parts of exotic creatures to sell? Or will mapping be the main source of revenue?

The mapping will be the "dependable" and steady cash flow, but there will be tons of stuff tucked away out in the wilds. Things to find, things to collect, things to recover, and things to hunt down and kill.

* This would also mean that PCs are bankrolling themselves (at least intially). Given the risk that PCs would be taking, they may seek support from rich patrons (who could give them quests to explore a certain area or recover items like a family heirloom). Imagine all the wheeling-and-dealing possibilities here!

The Library is fronting the group with a stockpile of equipment at the outpost, and as things get "safer" more people and problems will travel along the road to find them.

* Finally, if you want money to remain a motivator, I'd consider external expenses like taxes, licenses for this or that or even money spent at a tavern or brothel after a successful expedition.

The area is pretty much a lawless, Wild West kind of place. There's no government or "real" authority to levy taxes or require licenses or permits. (at least not yet) The money will trickle in, in fits and spurts.

If the piles get too big, then they'll have to spend some of it to keep the rest of it safe. If it gets too hard to keep it safe, they can start hiring people to watch it for them. Then they can build a place for the people watching their money to live. Then they can build a big wall around the places where the people who watch their money live....

 

[Ferghis]

Another issue is that what seems a lot of money at 1st level will rapidly become trivial at high level, so don't rely on money as the main PC motivator. I'd suggest having the PCs be part of a scouting organisation. The other thing you can do is offer a very big pay off when scouting is complete, such as a % share of ownership in a merchant coster, or their own dominion Kingmaker style.

I wholly agree with S'mon, and encourage you to work out the "Silk Road" idea.

As for how much money is enough money a smarter poster than me (I forget who, they deserve the credit), posted the following, more or less.

Less than 1% of the population are wealthy individuals that spend about 200gp per month. That kind of cash establishes you as a person of power, lets you develop useful contacts, and yields other benefits.

About 5% to 15% of the population belong to a growing minority, the middle-class, and spends about 40gp per month. For most people, this is a successful life, and it includes skilled craftsmen, officials, many nobles and military officers.

About 15% to 20% of the population spends about 10gp permonth. This is the category of individuals who are clawing their way out of poverty. For the unsuccessful or novice adventurer, they sleep 5 to a room (1 sp) and eat 1 meal/day (2sp), the 3sp/day is 2gp/week or 8gp/month for long-term stay. Call it 10gp/month including equipment, clothes, booze & sundries. A little less than what a mercenary sergeant or elite soldier makes. This category also covers journeyman artisans and similar levels of professional expertise.

The vast majority (70%) of people live by spending about 3gp per month, or living off the land they cultivate. A peasant labourer sleeps in a ragged blanket on a dry(ish) stone/reed floor with 30 other men for 1cp/day, gets food from the market with plenty of hot broth and porridge and you can eat for about 5 cp/day, if there's regular work you still have 4 cp/day for patching your rags and drinking plenty of weak beer at about 2 cp/gallon... Not such a bad life by historical standards. But if there's no regular work, you better hope you saved some cps, or it's a choice (at best) between starvation and begging.

 

[Stoat]

I would go in an entirely metagame direction. Specifically, I'd assign a level to the overall challenge the PC's are facing, and then I'd pay them out one or more treasure parcels appropriate to that level. Then I'd slather the whole thing with fluff.

To my mind, mapping out a huge geographic area like this sounds like a high-heroic tier endeavor. I'd call it a 10th level challenge. I'd take one or two of the 10th level treasure parcels from the DMG, divide them by 24 (because you figure it'll take 2 years in-game to complete the job) and pay the PC's that amount every month.

 

[Nytmare]

I would go in an entirely metagame direction. Specifically, I'd assign a level to the overall challenge the PC's are facing, and then I'd pay them out one or more treasure parcels appropriate to that level. Then I'd slather the whole thing with fluff.

I think that it really needs to be a commissioned job, and that I need to watch how the money earned is affecting how well they can do the job.

I want to make sure that the encouragement is for them to do the job quickly and efficiently. Paying them a flat rate each month, regardless of what they're actually doing leaves them to wander at whatever pace is worth the money they already know they're getting.

The average 10th level parcel is 1,000 gold. So 2, 1,000 gold parcels spread out into 24 chunks, and then divided by 4 characters, is about 21 gold per person, per month.

21 gold is enough to feed one person trail rations for a month, and then leave them with a full 6 gold pieces for spending money. They'd have to save almost every penny for a year just to buy a single healing potion.