Waibel's Rule of Interpretation (aka "How to Interpret the Rules")

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say!

The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere.

heheheh.

[Seliousry though, nice chart. ]

 

[GMforPowergamers]

AFAIC, it shouldn't have gone any further than this:

"I thought manticores only lived in deserts?"
"no, they don't, and that would be player knowledge anyway."
"OK"

in fact, I would go so far as to say such behavior goes against the spirit of the game. In fact, I know so because that was explicitly addressed in the 1e DMG

in my game it would go more like this:

"I thought manticores only lived in deserts?"
"I don't know, does it matter?"
"Yes, because..." (I can't imagine the reason but assume he had one...)
"Well if you feel so strongly, ok, its an X instead"
where X= another creature of similar power

 

[Hussar]

[MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] - I am participating because I think there are other gamers, like me, who prefer consensus style games and I'm providing an example of how consensus games work. You, instead, are trying to tell me that consensus games actually don't work (they are milquetoast) and that the "proper" way to play is your style.
[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?401098-Waibel-s-Rule-of-Interpretation-(aka-quot-How-to-Interpret-the-Rules-quot-)/page12#ixzz3NiWElRtB[/url]

Aren't you the one who spent a considerable amount of time detailing slaad? I believe you are. Are you also not the one who spent considerable time criticising WOTC for their 4e changes to Salad? Yup, I'm pretty sure you were the one in that conversation.

So, I would say that if I dropped Slaad in my game and did them in a completely different way, completely ignoring all prior canon regarding slaad, maybe my slaad are from the Abyss, you would have no problems whatsoever? You'd never so much as question me about it?

Like I said earlier, considering the HUGE reaction about WOTC's changes to D&D canon, I'd say that there are considerable numbers of gamers out there for whom game canon is very important.

 

[Hussar]

in my game it would go more like this:

"I thought manticores only lived in deserts?"
"I don't know, does it matter?"
"Yes, because..." (I can't imagine the reason but assume he had one...)
"Well if you feel so strongly, ok, its an X instead"
where X= another creature of similar power

At the time, I played the way Sancrosanct advises and just steamrolled the player and ignored his complaints. Now, I would be far closer to your approach.

 

[BryonD]

[MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] - I am participating because I think there are other gamers, like me, who prefer consensus style games and I'm providing an example of how consensus games work. You, instead, are trying to tell me that consensus games actually don't work (they are milquetoast) and that the "proper" way to play is your style.

You seem to be confusing a conversation about best practices for the general community with a commentary on your personal game.
I have no way of knowing if you game is the greatest narrative epic ever or simply a series of unrelated combats with the monster in Room 19.

If you say that you are now having an awesome time doing whatever it is you are doing, then great.
Play what you like.

As to my comments on what makes a best practice for the community at large, they still stand.

You and I have a long history and the history includes numerous complaints from you about Bad DMs and bad players. When you come into this thread with two more examples, I don't just see two more examples, I see status quo within a long-worn trail. So even if your two examples don't reinforce that point, you have established yourself as a corner case with regard to the community I'm offer advice toward.

 

[Celebrim]

"I thought manticores only lived in deserts?"
"no, they don't, and that would be player knowledge anyway."
"OK"

in fact, I would go so far as to say such behavior goes against the spirit of the game. In fact, I know so because that was explicitly addressed in the 1e DMG

If this actually happened to me, I'd hope I could give the question "I thought manticores only lived in deserts?" the sort of answer it deserves.

Such as:

"This one won an all expenses paid vacation package on Wheel of Fortune."
"Yes, they do, but this one has a four hour commute and you are its wandering encounter."
"Only on Tuesdays."
"It's a recon manticore."

 

[Celebrim]

So, I would say that if I dropped Slaad in my game and did them in a completely different way, completely ignoring all prior canon regarding slaad, maybe my slaad are from the Abyss, you would have no problems whatsoever? You'd never so much as question me about it?

Absolutely. It would be ridiculous for me to imagine some other DM not only had came to the same conclusions about Slaad as I had, but was required to adhere to my personal tastes. It might be that I would think to myself, privately, that I did Slaad more artfully (better) than he did, but I'd never tell him that directly. His gameworld is his gameworld. As player, I have no right to impose upon it. There is no way for him to be 'wrong' about how to use Slaad in his own game world.

Like I said earlier, considering the HUGE reaction about WOTC's changes to D&D canon, I'd say that there are considerable numbers of gamers out there for whom game canon is very important.

This is very different situation. WotC is not my DM. WotC is my professional game publisher. When I sit at a DM's table, I do so at the Dm's pleasure - he is the host, and I'm to be a good guest in his 'house'. I'm implicitly saying, "I want to enjoy in and participate in your special creation. I'm just here to play my character. Show me your world. I will be honored to become a part of it." When I buy a game supplement, I do so at my pleasure, and I feel quite entitled to say, "I want your creation to suit my needs, or I'm not going to buy it." Sure, if I just don't enjoy a particular DM's work, I'm not going to keep coming back. But I'm not going to bang my head on the table and say, "You stupid DM. This isn't what I want.", anymore than I'd sneer at what a cook served me when they invited me into their home. "I don't like asparagus. Take it away!", is something my children would be reprimanded for.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes, certainly, but in this case the action was one which I don't think it is possible for a GM to be wrong about. We're not even dealing of a case of a red dragon in a room with no exits big enough to let the red dragon out, which is unartful when it happens by accident, but is certainly never wrong. A manticore not in a desert by accident isn't even bad DMing.

no one brought up bad DMIng but you... it was a mistake one that would not bother me, but did bother someone...

So? Not knowing what the favored terrain of a monster happens to be does not make placing that monster outside of that favored terrain wrong.

again we were not there, the player had a reason, I would love to know what it is...

Sure. But I don't see your point. Sometimes questioning is good. Sometimes it is not. This particular case seems pretty clearly in the not category.

we disagree I see no problem with the question...

To illustrate my point so people could tell the difference between the two, I wrote a little script intended to be humorous, showing how - even if you have the right to question a GM, and even if your information is correct - you can still be wrong.

and in doing so set up what I belive is called a snowman...

Well, I don't recall saying anything to you personally, but yes, I think I can evaluate skill in a RPer just as I can evaluate skill in a singer or a painter. As for no info, I certainly wouldn't be commenting on the situation if someone hadn't described it.

except can you evaluate a painter without seeing his work but by hearing a critic of his work saying "I said I didn't like it back then, but in truth it wasn't so bad I would give it a better review today."

So, you're telling me that as players you are all the time trying to wheedle out of a GM whether he made something up on the spot or whether he had planned it ahead of time, and that conversely as the GM you never see any reason to hide this information?

only a sith deals in assaults...
no of course there are reasons to sometimes hide it, and I have enough "Trust currency" that I normally can... but I earn that trust by not "Covering up" every misstep...

And your insulted because I see that as poor play, full stop? There isn't much I can do about that.

I feel insulted because you came to a public place and basicly said "The way you do things are wrong..." when you know full well how pissed you would be if someone told you your way was wrong...

You are of the mistaken impression that someone has to grant me the right.

After blowing your top though with all your big capital letters, you just get a little bit weird.

how is it weird that I am calling you on your BS?

To begin with, a lot these suggestions you are making you'll find me utilizing in my posts or my example script as a way to try to deal with situations that are going wrong and put them back on the right track.

and how often do you find players that wont work with you when you say them? no hypothetical players real ones?

What you are missing is that you shouldn't have to tell your grown up adult friend, "Trust me this is leading somewhere."

why, it is a simple explanation... If I took my girlfriend to chucky cheese on our big date night (she has 3 kids we are there enough) I would not think it weird that I had to explain why I was doing something that seemed odd and that I was doing so with a plan not by some horrible mistake.

Your grown up adult friend if he's really adult friend shouldn't be such a whiny baby that needs his hand held and explicit reassurance all the time.

I think very few of my friends are whiny baby... why must you insult instead of just talk?

I mean it's great and all that you have the patience to keep patting his hand every time he doesn't know where this is going, but you know, maybe it would be great if you demanded as much maturity from the players as you are insisting is there from the DM. Unless you think the example Luke is exhibiting good form and manners, in which case, again, I have no response I can make to that.

I think your luke example was a strawman and not in anyway reflecting my view point or my style of game or my theory I stated...

Yeah, speaking of maturity from the players... what exact conclusions do you want me to draw from that?

well it was something that really happened about 10ish years ago... and it should show that the game would have been better had I spoke up at the beginning... but since you didn't acknowledge what happened that lead to it I bet you just want to again be insulteing again

I'm sorry your bad experiences with DMs make you 'snap' and force you to do things that my nine year olds would get a scolding for doing. I hope you have better experiences in the future.

I do believe that you are again trying to insult by comparing my funny story to that of your child... instead of reporting repated insults I will ask you to explain how this can be taken as not an insult...

He has feelings about manticores showing up in the desert that can't be smoothed over by any of the dozens of plausible explanations for why he's observed a manticore outside the desert, and further those feelings compel him to bluntly challenge DM's placement of the monster??? Seriously?

I do belive that is all the evidence we have...

It doesn't matter what compelled the player to bring it up

. again being dismissive of others... I don't know why it was his sticking point, but it was...

I don't know how much more obvious it can be that responding to what the DM describes by challenging his right to describe it and demanding he retract it is not functional or attractive play by the player, nor can I imagine a more trivial example to illustrate the point than the one Hussar provided me with of a player demanding that manticore's not appear in forests because their favored terrain is desert. The powers of my imagination couldn't have come up with such a straw man example.

your luke example was far worse...

If I'd imagined it, I would have rejected it as too absurd to believe. There is another thread about whether RPGs are watchable. Well, if this happened during a big formal podcast with an audience in the room, I'd hang my head in shame to be involved with. As a member of the audience, my feelings would provoke a desire for me to leave the room in embarrassment for the people on the stage. It's worst sort of example of rules lawyerish play, worthy of appearing in a comedy movie.

unless the DM handled it well... or you know there was a reason given, or you know anything...

Sorry you find that opinion insulting, but I suspect I'm not going to prove to be all that unique in that regard to this judgment.

you are... about 20 years of gameing... running games at gencon and origins and concon and dragoncon and helping new DMs at encounters, and LFR... I have never meet anyone in person willing to be as verbaly abusive as you are over the game that was not looking for a fight... infact you are far worse then any example given here...

Please if you are invited to perform a role-playing game for a large audience, for your sake, don't hold in your mind that this sort of rules lawyering and challenging the DM is an example of skillful play by a player at a table.

I have no doubt since I am better at speaking and improve then typing or writing, I would do much better with a game then a message board

 

[Celebrim]

You and I have a long history and the history includes numerous complaints from you about Bad DMs and bad players. When you come into this thread with two more examples, I don't just see two more examples, I see status quo within a long-worn trail. So even if your two examples don't reinforce that point, you have established yourself as a corner case with regard to the community I'm offer advice toward.

In fairness to Hussar - who holds the 'honor' of being my least favorite poster on the boards that I also respect - Hussar has evolved a system for dealing with his long history of bad play that seems to work for him and which as far as I can tell he's absolutely consistent about. That standard is that "The DM is always wrong.", which is I guess sort of the counterpart to "The customer is always right." And he seems to be striving to be the DM he would want to have as a player, which is one of the reasons I can still respect him.

But I agree that even though this seems to work for him, he doesn't know what he's missing. And further I'd say that almost all the arguments he and I have come from his assumption that I'm holding the exact opposite opinion, that the DM is always right and has no need to listen to anyone. I've given up trying to convince him that there are other alternatives.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So the rest of the players sit around for one or two minutes so that they can play something you threw together in one or two minutes instead of what you had ready

or

the rest of the players sit around for however long it actually takes

the other players can take that time to talk about agents of shield, or there girlfriends, or order our pizza... I mean it's not like those things wont come up at SOME point?

 

[Sacrosanct]

At the time, I played the way Sancrosanct advises and just steamrolled the player and ignored his complaints. Now, I would be far closer to your approach.

complaints? The way you told it, the player used metagame knowledge to try to bully you with ruleslawyering to make the game world how he or she wanted, rather than what you as the DM wanted, presumably because they can't handle anything outside very strict RAW you didn't describe open dialog, but a lengthy heated discussion and for what? Because the MM that he or she memorized said manticores don't live in a forest?

players like that shouldn't be catered to because it gives them an even bigger sense of entitlement