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D&D 5E Wall of Force Reality Check (as used by DM not players)

Oofta

Legend
Player's Handbook, page 196



Player's Handbook, page 285

Not sure how to say this without sounding a little bit snarky, but what's the point?

A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell...​

is all you need to know. Being completely concealed is one way of getting total cover but not the only way. If you listen to the podcast that was linked to above, it's pretty clear. Even a window can block a spell.
 

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Alatar

First Post
Being completely concealed is one way of getting total cover but not the only way. If you listen to the podcast that was linked to above, it's pretty clear. Even a window can block a spell.

I've listened to the podcast, I've read the twitter traffic and I've read the text. The twitter traffic is confusing. The text defines one way to get total cover. It does so in one sentence. The text and the podcast are not in agreement. If the text is in error then it deserves an errata.

My DM hasn't listened to the podcast and won't listen to the podcast. He's not a podcast guy. But he has read the text and his reading comprehension is quite good. He also keeps abreast of errata releases. Some podcast somewhere doesn't cut it. So that means our houserule will be to go with what is in the book. That's our general houserule: RAW.

For the sake of simplicity, they decided to conflate what were two separate things in prior editions: cover and concealment, but now they want to amend the manner in which they executed the conflation, but without actually modifying the text to reflect the new ruling. The result is inconsistent good-faith interpretations, a flaw of their own making.
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=38424]Alatar[/MENTION], that occurence of "concealed" in the characterisation of "total cover" came up in the recent long-running Hiding thread.

I think [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] was probably right when he suggested that "concealed", in that occurrence, doesn't mean literally mean "concealed from sight" but something more like "sheltered behind the cover" because "lacking a clear path". That makes the wording infelicitous - as you note - but preserves coherence. Otherwise a character behind a gelatinous cube or glasssteel or similar - who is not concealed in the literal sense - would also not enjoy protection from attacks (because, under the mooted interpretation, not enjoying cover) which seems pretty counter-intuitive.
 

Oofta

Legend
I've listened to the podcast, I've read the twitter traffic and I've read the text. The twitter traffic is confusing. The text defines one way to get total cover. It does so in one sentence. The text and the podcast are not in agreement. If the text is in error then it deserves an errata.

My DM hasn't listened to the podcast and won't listen to the podcast. He's not a podcast guy. But he has read the text and his reading comprehension is quite good. He also keeps abreast of errata releases. Some podcast somewhere doesn't cut it. So that means our houserule will be to go with what is in the book. That's our general houserule: RAW.

For the sake of simplicity, they decided to conflate what were two separate things in prior editions: cover and concealment, but now they want to amend the manner in which they executed the conflation, but without actually modifying the text to reflect the new ruling. The result is inconsistent good-faith interpretations, a flaw of their own making.

I guess I just don't see the conflict. I can have full cover when I'm behind a wall of bulletproof glass whether or not the shades are drawn. It could well be that I'm just so indoctrinated by previous versions that I don't see any issue. :)

But if you don't allow bullet proof glass (or a wall of force) to stop spells it gets really confusing. For example it would make sense that I can't target somebody behind a wall with scorching ray because they are rays of fire. Fireball is a streak of light from your outstretched hand. But firestorm? Just fire appears in the area you target.

The visual fluff of the spell should not affect how it works.

It does seem a bit odd that I can't charm someone behind the glass, but it's consistent. I'll take consistent rules any day. As far as the rules being less clear than theoretically possible ... well that's always going to be the case.
 

Alatar

First Post
[MENTION=38424]Alatar[/MENTION], that occurence of "concealed" in the characterisation of "total cover" came up in the recent long-running Hiding thread.

I've steered clear of that one. The WotC folk are doing too much shoulder shrugging on that issue to make it amenable to consensus. The terminology they chose to frame the issue, "lightly obscured" and "heavily obscured", and the definitions they assigned to those terms, wherein heavily obscured non-intuitively means utterly opaque and lightly obscured means who knows what, pretty much removed the possibility of clarity.

I think [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] was probably right when he suggested that "concealed", in that occurrence, doesn't mean literally mean "concealed from sight" but something more like "sheltered behind the cover" because "lacking a clear path". That makes the wording infelicitous - as you note - but preserves coherence.

Indeed, if you redefine "completely concealed" to mean something other than the plain meaning of the phrase, the inconsistency can be made to vanish. I would argue that requiring the reader to make such a leap is unreasonable and that ignoring the error in the text, if that's what it is, in order to hold down the errata word count, mindful of the mess they made in the previous edition, is less than laudable.

Otherwise a character behind a gelatinous cube or glasssteel or similar - who is not concealed in the literal sense - would also not enjoy protection from attacks (because, under the mooted interpretation, not enjoying cover) which seems pretty counter-intuitive.

The phrase, "enjoy protection from attacks" begs the question, what kind of attacks? A missile attack would surely run into any obstruction between the attacker and target. A disembodied skeletal hand appearing as of out of nowhere and attaching itself to the target might be another matter. The Wall of Force description states that "nothing physical can pass through the wall", very specific language. We like very specific language. It affords clarity of meaning. The Chill Touch skeletal hand does not traverse the distance between caster and target and, therefore, does not pass through the wall, or the window, as the case may be. Seems rather clean cut. But no, that clarity of meaning, that very specific wording, does not lead us to the correct answer. Rather, like the phrase "completely concealed", it's meaning needs to be twisted or discounted to fit the later ruling.

Furthermore, a creature standing at the end of a darkened hallway might be completely concealed, though there is no solid object between it and a potential observer. The decision to define total cover as being completely concealed was indeed infelicitous, so much so that whether you and I can come to an agreement on the meaning of the text is beside the point. The pages of discussion that precede these posts attest to the problem.

In other words, they screwed this particular pooch so badly that a single phrase dropped in somewhere cannot resolve it. And that is probably why we haven't seen an amendment through 5 subsequent printings.

I have no preference as to how spells with remote effects interact with walls of force. I just want it to be clear, as well it might be. In that regard, the authors have let us down and seem unwilling to rectify the problem, for reasons about which we can only speculate, as I have done herein.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
[MENTION=38424]Alatar[/MENTION], that occurence of "concealed" in the characterisation of "total cover" came up in the recent long-running Hiding thread.

I think [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] was probably right when he suggested that "concealed", in that occurrence, doesn't mean literally mean "concealed from sight" but something more like "sheltered behind the cover" because "lacking a clear path". That makes the wording infelicitous - as you note - but preserves coherence. Otherwise a character behind a gelatinous cube or glasssteel or similar - who is not concealed in the literal sense - would also not enjoy protection from attacks (because, under the mooted interpretation, not enjoying cover) which seems pretty counter-intuitive.

Right. I think the confusion comes from putting too much weight on the word concealed, when what the sentence (and the entire passage) is about is the relationship between a target and an obstacle, namely how much of the target is covered by an obstacle. Obstacles are things which provide cover, whether they are transparent, translucent, or opaque, so I agree that "concealed" was a poor choice of words, but I think the intended meaning can be reasonably understood. What is presented is three degrees of cover, not three degrees of concealment.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
In addition, putting too much focus on the word concealed can lead to misidentifying things which provide concealment as obstacles when in fact they are not. Obstacles are things with enough physical substance to effectively block an attack. So although you can be concealed by darkness, as was brought up up-thread, the darkness is not itself an obstacle. Another example I brought up in the recent hiding thread is a curtain that completely conceals a person but provides no protection from an attack. Such a curtain provides no cover because it isn't an obstacle. A sword can be thrust through it just as easily as whatever normal clothing a person might be wearing. Concealment and cover are actually unrelated, although there is considerable overlap, and sometimes this requires DM adjudication to determine. For example, I wouldn't say a pane of glass was an obstacle and therefore interrupted the path to a target, unless of course it was thick to the point of being almost unbreakable, while others seem to think it would just by its being an interposing object.
 

Clock Up

First Post
I had my players pulling something really nasty in the last session. Cleric and Wizard combined Insect Plague with Wall of Force in order to completely bypass a deadly encounter.
So here is my question: is that possible to maintain concentration through a WoF? Because it's really easy to cheese encounters by casting any sustained damage AoE spell and have someone else keeping the enemies trapped inside the area with a spherical version of WoF.
 

Croesus

Adventurer
So here is my question: is that possible to maintain concentration through a WoF? Because it's really easy to cheese encounters by casting any sustained damage AoE spell and have someone else keeping the enemies trapped inside the area with a spherical version of WoF.

Yep, you can maintain concentration. The concentration rules on PHB page 203 list three ways of losing concentration:

• Casting another spell that requires concentration.
• Taking damage.
• Being incapacitated or killed.

The rules also list optional situations, such as being tossed around on a ship. That's it. So you can maintain concentration.

However, if the spell allows you to move the effect, e.g., flaming sphere, I wouldn't allow that, as you no longer have line of effect to the sphere.

Casting insect plague, then surrounding the area with wall of force is a really nasty effect. If the trapped creatures don't have access to dispel magic or some sort of teleportation magic, they are in deep trouble. Just remember, if the PCs can do this, so can their opponents. :eek:
 

Clock Up

First Post
I'm about to rule that it's impossible to keep concentration on any magic effect that's inside a WoF. Otherwise they will keep doing this ridiculous combo over and over again. Notice that things like Insect Plague can be sustained for as long as 10 minutes, which means 100 rounds of combat. It's not just "broken" it's a free win pass. I wouldn't want to give access to Disintegrate to every boss in my game just because of this.
 

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