Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Victim]

Even though it doesn't actually say anything like that?


glass.

Well, since the quoted rules text makes an explicit comparison to sneak attack, I'd say that it actually does say that.

 

[glass]

Well, since the quoted rules text makes an explicit comparison to sneak attack, I'd say that it actually does say that.

It says that the work like other abilities that add damage, and gives sneak attack as an example of an ability that adds damage. That is not the same as saying that all abilities that add damage work like sneak attack.

That would be a major change from how everything else in D&D works, so it would have to be explicitly stated. It isn't.


glass.

 

[NilesB]

I'm surprised Divine Sacrifice didn't make the list because that also only works on the 1st attack.

Divine Sacrifice increases the damage of one attack per round by (I'm not going to look it up again so lets call it) n. this results in + (chance to hit with first attack)n damage per round for a conventional Frontliner and + (chance to hit with first attack)n damage per round for a Martial Adept.

Exactly the same bonus.

 

[Slaved]

Divine Sacrifice increases the damage of one attack per round by (I'm not going to look it up again so lets call it) n. this results in + (chance to hit with first attack)n damage per round for a conventional Frontliner and + (chance to hit with first attack)n damage per round for a Martial Adept.

Exactly the same bonus.

If divine sacrifice adds damage wouldn't the extra damage be negated by insightful strike? I guess it depends on the wording of both but insightful strike says no extra damage even from spells.

 

[charlesatan]

If divine sacrifice adds damage wouldn't the extra damage be negated by insightful strike? I guess it depends on the wording of both but insightful strike says no extra damage even from spells.

Possibly true but I was thinking of other maneuvers since Insightful Strike (and Greater Insightful Strike) is only one of many maneuvers.

 

[Fedifensor]

A Medium-sized 5th-level fighter with 18 Strength and Powerful Charge (Eberron Campaign Setting), Greater Powerful Charge (Eberron Campaign Setting), Rapid Assault (Book of Nine Swords), Power Attack, Weapon Focus and a +1 greatsword can charge and deal 5d6+17 (avg 34.5) points of damage in the first round of combat with a +8 attack bonus. With a bit of magic help in the form of an enlarge person from a spellcaster or a 50 gp potion, this goes up to 7d6+18 (avg 42.5) points of damage.

Well, a charge is only going to happen once per fight, so I'll give a counter-example, also using the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Kalashtar Warblade 5

Important Stats: 16 Strength, 14 Constitution, 13 Wisdom
Important Skills: 8 ranks Concentration
Important Feats: Psionic Weapon, Power Attack, Blade Meditation: Diamond Mind (bonus feat)
Important Maneuvers: Battle Leader's Charge, Emerald Razor, Insightful Strike
Important Stances: Punishing Stance
Important Equipment: +1 Bastard Sword (katana)

The Kalashtar can also charge on the 1st round of combat. First, he uses a swift action to activate Punishing Stance (+1d6 dmg, -2 AC). Then, as his full-round action, he uses Battle Leader's Charge, Psionic Weapon, and PA 1 to do 3d6+1d10+18 (avg 34) with a +10 attack bonus...the same damage as your fighter, with +2 added attack bonus (from charging) and -2 AC. Considering the Warblade has more HP than the fighter, the extra damage is worth the AC penalty. Or he could avoid using Punishing Stance and take 2 extra points of PA to have the same attack bonus and same damage as the fighter with no AC penalty.

Unlike the fighter, the warblade is not just a one-hit charge specialist. The following round, he can swing for 1d10+1d6+6 base damage (avg 15), using Emerald Razor to make that a touch attack. If the foe gains most of their AC from armor, the Warblade can easily dump some of his +5 BAB into Power Attack for up to +10 damage, or 1d10+1d6+16 (avg 25).

Or, he can use Insightful Strike to do 1d20+12 damage (avg 22.5). Note that this is without any items to boost Concentration.

Note that I used nearly identical equipment, and a lower Strength (which is fair, since I used those additional stat points in the Wisdom requirement for Psionic Weapon). The great thing about it is the additional options offered by the Warblade. Your fighter can charge, and then his only real combat decision is whether to Power Attack. The warblade has more options because of the variety of maneuvers available to him. Note that I still have three more maneuvers to pick, one more maneuver to have readied, and one additional stance. I also have some additional class abilities that can really help in combat (like Uncanny Dodge). Overall, the warblade is a much more capable and versatile fighter at level 5.


Now, when you get to higher levels, the fighter starts using multiple attacks, which swings the balance in the favor of the fighter. Or does it? The kalashtar takes Psionic Meditation as his 6th level feat, which means he can recover his Psionic Weapon as a move action. With a minor investment in a Concentration-boosting item, he can do +2d6 every round (except with Insightful Strike, but the Concentration boost will up that damage too). At 9th, he can either take Greater Psionic Weapon for +4d6...or Deep Impact to make every standard action maneuver go versus touch AC (which makes Emerald Razor obsolete).


The problem with fighters is that there is a law of diminishing returns with feats. Every time a fighter gets a bonus feat, the presumption is that they will take the best possible feat for their build. But if they do that, eventually they are taking less desirable choices (because they're already taken the best feats). In contrast, the Warblade's maneuver choices are getting better and better as they gain levels.

 

[charlesatan]

Now, when you get to higher levels, the fighter starts using multiple attacks, which swings the balance in the favor of the fighter. Or does it? The kalashtar takes Psionic Meditation as his 6th level feat, which means he can recover his Psionic Weapon as a move action. With a minor investment in a Concentration-boosting item, he can do +2d6 every round (except with Insightful Strike, but the Concentration boost will up that damage too). At 9th, he can either take Greater Psionic Weapon for +4d6...or Deep Impact to make every standard action maneuver go versus touch AC (which makes Emerald Razor obsolete).

Actually if you're just going to use an Eberron Kalashtar, you might as well have took Psychic Renewal (recover maneuver = level of maneuver in pp) and Instant Clarity at 6th-level (to recover your psionic focus).

 

[Fedifensor]

Actually if you're just going to use an Eberron Kalashtar, you might as well have took Psychic Renewal (recover maneuver = level of maneuver in pp) and Instant Clarity at 6th-level (to recover your psionic focus).

I generally avoid feats that are use-limited - the advantage of fighter-types over spellcasters is that they don't run out of uses with their attacks. Psionic Meditation can be used once per round all day long, which makes it preferable to Psychic Renewal (only usable 3 times per day).

That said, I'd probably pick up Psychic Renewal at 12th...at that point, the Kalashtar would have enough PPs to use the feat a few times, and the ability to recover a high-level maneuver and use it two rounds in a row can be devastating.

 

[FireLance]

Well, a charge is only going to happen once per fight, so I'll give a counter-example, also using the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Kalashtar Warblade 5

Well, if I was a Kalashtar Fighter 5, I'd swap out Weapon Focus for Psionic Weapon and Power Attack for 1 point less. That leaves my attack bonus the same and ups the average damage by 5 points. By the way, Psionic Weapon has no Wisdom prerequisite. You may be thinking of Narrow Mind.

And, a charge can happen at any time the fighter is 10 or more feet away from an opponent and has a clear path to him. Depending on how spread out his opponents are, he may be able to to set himself up for a charge in subsequent rounds. If he drops his first opponent with his initial attack, he might even be able to charge again on the next round. A charge-focused fighter should also invest in the Spring Attack feat chain so that he can charge one round, and Spring Attack the next to set himself up for another charge in the following round. If he sacrifices Rapid Assault, a fighter has the feats to pull off the charge/spring attack combo by 6th level or 4th if he is content with just Powerful Charge.

 

[Fedifensor]

Well, if I was a Kalashtar Fighter 5, I'd swap out Weapon Focus for Psionic Weapon and Power Attack for 1 point less. That leaves my attack bonus the same and ups the average damage by 5 points. By the way, Psionic Weapon has no Wisdom prerequisite. You may be thinking of Narrow Mind.

The Wisdom 13 is actually for Psionic Meditation, which I would pick up at 6th - it's called "planning ahead". If you don't have Psionic Meditation, you're basically using Psionic Weapon once per fight. Likewise, I took Psionic Weapon both for the +2d6 on the first hit, and as the prerequisite for Greater Psionic Weapon and/or Deep Impact.

Furthermore, the build I proposed can be within 1 point of your fighter's damage on a charge if he dumps the +2 from charging into Power Attack. The thing is, the warblade isn't investing most of his capabilities into the damage he can dish out in Round 1. Once you get to Round 2, it isn't even close.

And, a charge can happen at any time the fighter is 10 or more feet away from an opponent and has a clear path to him. Depending on how spread out his opponents are, he may be able to to set himself up for a charge in subsequent rounds. If he drops his first opponent with his initial attack, he might even be able to charge again on the next round.

If the fighter shows his deadliness by dropping a foe in a single hit, he's either going to get swarmed by the bad guys, or they're going to run.

A charge-focused fighter should also invest in the Spring Attack feat chain so that he can charge one round, and Spring Attack the next to set himself up for another charge in the following round. If he sacrifices Rapid Assault, a fighter has the feats to pull off the charge/spring attack combo by 6th level or 4th if he is content with just Powerful Charge.

Except that if he's fighting someone of decent tactical ability, they will close with him after he Spring Attacks, and he'll start his next round in melee and unable to charge without drawing the AoO. He does get the benefits of Mobility versus the AoO, but he may not have a charge lane depending on the positioning of the bad guys. It's nice when you can get off multiple charges in a fight, but I wouldn't make a build around it.

As to having enough feats for the charge combo plus Spring Attack - drop Rapid Assault, and the warblade does more damage on the round 1 charge. Drop Greater Powerful Charge, and the damage discrepancy becomes even larger. Meanwhile, the kalashtar warblade has picked up Psionic Meditation at 6th (which allows the warblade to use Psionic Weapon every round). By 8th, the first time the fighter can get a feat for something besides his one method of fighting (assuming he drops Rapid Assault), the warblade has used his 7th level maneuver gain and 8th level maneuver swap for things like Mithral Tornado (eat your heart out, Whirlwind Attack!) and Lightning Recovery (rerolling an attack is great if you are Power Attacking).

The next level (9th), he's met all the prerequisites to pick up Deep Impact, which is the holy grail for a two-handed weapon user when going after armored targets. Attack someone in full plate, and it's basically a +8 to your attack bonus...or +16 to damage when using Power Attack. We won't even mention his 5th level manuever pick. The fighter, in comparison, has gained two more feats from the 6th level comparison (8th level bonus fighter feat and 9th level character feat). I can't think of anything that would make up for the gains the warblade got over the same period.

Sure, fighters can be built to dish out a lot of damage in specific situations - usually involving a charge in conjunction with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. But for all-around combat ability and versatility, the Warblade is head and shoulders above the fighter. Basically, each new maneuver is like a limited-use feat, which needs to be recharged in some fashion but is often superior to any similar feat (compare Mithral Tornado to Whirlwind Attack, for example). Put simply, the warblade is just a flat-out more interesting character to play, as it has a lot more options in combat. And the warblade doesn't get hamstrung by one bad choice during leveling, as he can swap out maneuvers and isn't worrying about meeting massive prerequisites for high-tier feats.