Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[interwyrm]

I think the martial adepts definitely have a place in D&D. Sure, when I first started playing, fighters were fun. Now? I would never play one. I'd get bored after encounter #1. It's part of the same reason I like the new spellcasting classes that have predefined spell lists. Those are intro-spellcasters. Sorcerer is intermediate. Wizard is advanced.

Barbarian is beginner. Fighter is intermediate. Martial adept is advanced.

As far as the balance... I think warblades get d12 because they don't get heavy weapon proficiency. They could spend a feat to get it. A fighter could spend a feat to get improved toughness for the same +1 hp per level.

I really want to play a martial adept after a cursory look. They are complicated enough that I feel like I could get enjoyment out of it for an extended period of time.

When I play D&D, in combat, I don't want to be an android with an algorithm. The crusader probably solves this best, because there is an element of randomness to the abilities you can use.

 

[Victim]

Also, I think you're going about your arguments wrong. Don't mistake me, I think the martial adepts are powerful classes, but there are other classes more powerful than it (spellcasters, gishes, etc.). As I mentioned, the Duskblade at 5th-level can easily deal 5d6 electricity damage (shocking grasp) plus whatever damage his weapon deals (greatsword, 2d6+6) as a standard action. Or even using core, at higher levels, I'd go Ftr/Wiz/Eldritch Knight combination, Polymorph myself into some insanely powerful creature (Firbolg and War Troll the most optimum forms), and one can easily outdo a high-level Warblade.
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Firbolg and War Troll aren't core. Moreover, you don't need to be a wizard to reap the benefits of Polymorphing - as long as there's a friendly arcanist with the spell, any fighter type can be buffed up similarly without the sacrifice of fighting levels. If you take the Polymorph as a given, then a regular fighter type is going to be able to use it better than a fighter mage type. The multiclass improves the character's independence, but not its performance. It's a move that decreases the character's power when buffed but gives them more control over when they fight with the buff. A Warblade could make even greater use from Polymorph effects than a fighter; besides the obvious combat stat boosts, the high STR scores available on many monsters could put the DCs on some manuevers through the roof.

I've already mentioned that the Duskblade power curve spikes at around 5th level; at level 11, he's still adding +5d6 with his best channeled touch spells. Not so awesome then, eh?

... Not seeing the "gish" awesomeness here.

 

[charlesatan]

I forgot about spells!

I am rushing out the door and likely won't have time for a couple of days but at some point I'd like to make a list of spells up to 3rd level that help teamates for which would help which character more.

Something like....
Warblade: a, b, c
Fighter/Barbarian/??: d, e, f

unless someone has a better formating idea?

Here: main sources are PHB spells, PHB II, Spell Compedium, Dragon Magic, and Complete Mage. For spells that benefit both classes, I'll list them under those that benefit "more" from them. I'm also assuming that the Warblade is using the standard action/full round action maneuvers that give them one attack, instead of something like Time Stands Still which gives them access to more attacks (and just so you know, there are only three maneuvers that do so). Also, these are more offense oriented rather than defense (since both classes benefit from defense equally).

Warblade:

1st-level: magic stone, true strike*, blade of blood (PHB 2), snake's swiftness (SpC), divine sacrifice* (SpC)

2nd-level: bear's endurance, heroism (bard), stretch weapon (PHB 2), sure strike* (PHB 2), blade weave* (SpC), mass snake's swiftness (SpC), heroics (SpC)

3rd-level: crown of smiting (PHB 2), rusted blade (CM), find the gap* (SpC),

Characters Who Frequently Use Full Attack:

1st-level: bless, divine favor*, magic weapon, shillelagh*, bloodletting* (CM), critical strike* (CM), rhino's rush* (SpC), blades of fire* (SpC)

2nd-level: aid, align weapon, bull's strength, rage (bard), animalistic powr (PHB 2), tactical precision (SpC), war cry (SpC), brambles (SpC), infernal wound (SpC), checkmate's light (SpC), flame of faith (SpC), weapon of energy (SpC), spikes (SpC), weapon of the deity (SpC), daggerspell stance* (SpC), lion's charge* (SpC), strength of stone* (SpC), swift haste* (SpC), burning sword (SpC), sonic weapon (SpC), wraithstrike *(SpC)

3rd-level: prayer, greater magic weapon, good hope, haste, keen edge, crown of might (PHB 2), ferocity of sanguine rage* (DM), fell the greatest foe (SpC), spectral weapon* (SpC),
dolorous blow (SpC), weapon of impact (SpC), bite of the werewolf* (SpC), righteous fury* (SpC), undead bane weapon (SpC), bladestorm* (SpC)

*spells with personal range so assumes you somehow manage to get it

 

[Slaved]

Snakes swiftness just gives people an extra attack right? That means that whoever has the best melee attack would get the most benefit and since you cannot use a standard action strike with it the warblade would probably not be at the top of that list. Or am I remembering the spell wrong?

Bladeweave has the same issue right?

Wow heroism is great for the warblade though!

 

[charlesatan]

Firbolg and War Troll aren't core. Moreover, you don't need to be a wizard to reap the benefits of Polymorphing - as long as there's a friendly arcanist with the spell, any fighter type can be buffed up similarly without the sacrifice of fighting levels. If you take the Polymorph as a given, then a regular fighter type is going to be able to use it better than a fighter mage type. The multiclass improves the character's independence, but not its performance. It's a move that decreases the character's power when buffed but gives them more control over when they fight with the buff. A Warblade could make even greater use from Polymorph effects than a fighter; besides the obvious combat stat boosts, the high STR scores available on many monsters could put the DCs on some manuevers through the roof.

I've already mentioned that the Duskblade power curve spikes at around 5th level; at level 11, he's still adding +5d6 with his best channeled touch spells. Not so awesome then, eh?

... Not seeing the "gish" awesomeness here.

Firbolg and War Troll yes, they aren't core. They're the most "optimum" forms to choose from though in terms of melee combat. But I guess with core, the results are less impressive.

Gish (assuming you have access to the accessories) mainly because you're not as reliant of the party wizard and there are a couple of buffs that you can cast on yourself (i.e. wraithstrike).

Warblade can benefit from Polymorph but the thing about Polymorph is that your Str has increased, so your constant damage modifier is increasing as well (giving you much more value for your full attack). With the exception of Time Stands Still, Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose, most of your maneuvers are single attacks.

Yes, I agree, Duskblade probably caps out at 5th-level. But I was just giving a 5th-level comparison to the 5th-level Warblade comparison. For a 20th-level build for example, I'd probably go more for a Sorcerer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion build.

Here's a relatively simple (to use) 20th-level gish I built: http://charlesatan.vox.com/library/post/sample-20thlevel-pc-gish.html

I didn't use Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph because I didn't want to complicate the character . Basically just cast Ferocity of Sanguine Rage and Wraithstrike then you're off (don't forget you have Arcane Strike). Something to compare the 20th-level martial adepts builds (the character is far from the most optimized but it is more or less optimized with the intent of being a bit easier to handle than most spellcasters/gishes).

 

[charlesatan]

Snakes swiftness just gives people an extra attack right? That means that whoever has the best melee attack would get the most benefit and since you cannot use a standard action strike with it the warblade would probably not be at the top of that list. Or am I remembering the spell wrong?

Correct. But placed it in the WB section anyway because the WB typically just has one attack, vs the Ftr which gets many (or rather will opt to use a full attack).

Bladeweave has the same issue right?

Bladeweave dazes for one attack/round. For a WB, that's enough.

edited: read bladeweave wrong.

 

[NilesB]

Bladeweave dazes for one attack/round. For a WB, that's enough.

Bladeweave allows you to declare if you use it to daze someone after you see if the attack hits. Full attackers have more chances to make it work.

After going through your list of spells that supposedly benefit Warblades more than conventional front-liners, the only ones I see that really do are true strike*, stretch weapon (PHB 2), sure strike* (PHB 2), and find the gap* (SpC). and most of these are swift action spells that carry a much greater opportunity cost for the Warblade.

 

[charlesatan]

Bladeweave allows you to declare if you use it to daze someone after you see if the attack hits. Full attackers have more chances to make it work.

True, but whether you hit once or you hit a lot of times during the round doesn't matter to Bladeweave. The list isn't set in stone since a lot of stuff really benefits any martial class. There are even arguable choices that I just lumped into the WB for the sake of it (i.e Heroism gives a Ftr bonus feat; I gave it to the WB simply because he has less feats to go around).

After going through your list of spells that supposedly benefit Warblades more than conventional front-liners, the only ones I see that really do are true strike*, stretch weapon (PHB 2), sure strike* (PHB 2), and find the gap* (SpC). and most of these are swift action spells that carry a much greater opportunity cost for the Warblade.

I'm surprised Divine Sacrifice didn't make the list because that also only works on the 1st attack.

But that aside, the list is just a list. I never claimed that it would be the optimum choice for a WB to cast them (since he has boosts to "buff" himself and counters to think of) although it would be great if somehow he managed to cast those spells on him (and most of them have a range of self).

 

[glass]

I don't think the manuever critting text contradicts itself. Based on the comparison to sneak attack, it seems to be saying that manuevers are treated as extra "dice" even if it's a flat damage bonus on crits.

Even though it doesn't actually say anything like that?


glass.

 

[glass]

Insightful strike is a concentration check not weapon damage, it specifically disallows you from increasing it's damage with any and all effects that deal extra weapon damage. Critical hits deal extra weapon damage, they do not improve concentration checks. This is not even a litte ambiguous.

That would indeed be true, except as I noted above critical hits do not 'improve weapon damage'. Therefore the rest of you argumant does not hold.


glass.