Warden?

[twilsemail]

I can agree that the Warden seems to have more staying power than pretty much any other defender. It does however seem that they are less adept at actually defending than any other defender. The penalties for refusing their mark aren’t exceptional at all. One is a more accurate melee basic, and the other is completely useless as written.

Wardens are a very Tank like Defender class, with no real agro mechanic.

A Warden’s allies will most likely at then end of a fight just scowl at him and wish he was a fighter. This said I still like the general flavor of the class and would like to try one out at some point.

 

[Cadfan]

My group has a Warden. The campaign just started, though, and the Warden's player is new. We ran a short rat-killin' combat session just to kick the tires for all our new players, and she did alright.

Issues I'm seeing right now:

1. A LOT of players took Toughness as their level 1 feat. She didn't. This means that she doesn't yet have better hit points than everyone else, so she's not feeling unusually tough.

2. She did take the Greatspear feat. This makes her marking power very, very useful, instead of nearly worthless (seriously, the penalty for shifting away and attacking an ally is being pulled back after the attack is over? At least it inflicts the vanilla -2 penalty...). With a greatspear, I'd argue that she's got the best marking power in the game, because she can use the sweet "hit them versus a non AC defense and they grant combat advantage" effect that non reach wardens will never, ever get to use. Unfortunately, this means she has an AC of 15.

3. She's nervous about taking damage.

Overall, this is not a good combination. She's got no better hit points than everyone else, a really low armor class, an incredible ability to convince monsters to attack her, and a fear of injury.

I'm going to have to finesse this one as a DM, I think, largely by convincing her to stop worrying about getting hurt (sell it as heroic, her character not caring in the least about any attack that does less than bloody her) and by convincing her to take Toughness at level 2. Once that happens, and once she gets a few levels under her belt, her hit points will take off and she'll surpass everyone else in the party on that score. Once that happens, the crisis should pass.

If this thread stays on the front page, I'll tell you how things go as the game continues.

 

[twilsemail]

I'd completely forgotten about the CA from the warden's smack. That does up it's usefulness quite a bit.

I'd also assumed that most people would be taking a reach weapon with a Warden.

 

[Engilbrand]

Why? When I play one, I'm definitely going sword and board. I'll do it as a Defender with a secondary Controller aspect. That's going to mean maxing the AC and forgetting about being a damage machine. Maybe I need to look it over again, but what's the benefit of using a reach weapon?

 

[Cadfan]

Why? When I play one, I'm definitely going sword and board. I'll do it as a Defender with a secondary Controller aspect. That's going to mean maxing the AC and forgetting about being a damage machine. Maybe I need to look it over again, but what's the benefit of using a reach weapon?

The warden marks every enemy adjacent to him, and then, if they attack his allies, he hits them with an incredibly vicious attack that is a weapon attack against reflex, AND which causes them to grant combat advantage to his allies for the next round.

Unfortunately he possesses no intrinsic ability to stop his enemies from shifting.

So an adjacent, marked enemy can shift one space away, and attack his allies. The warden can't use his awesome, incredibly good retaliation attack. He has to use his secondary ranged immediate reaction power, that pulls the enemy one space and immobilizes him for the rest of the round.

If he has a reach weapon, his incredibly awesome attack lets him strike the foe even when its one space away.

So a warden has to make a bit of a decision. If he goes Sword and Board, he can have a decent armor class. But his enemies will frequently ignore his marking power and just shift away from him, suffering only a -2 to attack, and a pull of one space. If he uses a reach weapon, he gains massively in his ability to force enemies to fight him, and to leave his allies alone. But he loses the use of a shield. And with his armor class as low as it is, that hurts.

There are things you can do to make the sword and board warden better at blocking enemies. A lot of warden powers create difficult terrain near the warden, which prevents shifting. One of the level 1 Forms creates difficult terrain for enemies out two spaces from the warden, and some encounter powers are similar for shorter periods of time. But the reach weapon wielding warden doesn't have to worry about those things.

 

[cdrcjsn]

I don't know if it's "incredibly" overpowered, but at least on paper it does look like the power creep is there.

Compared to a fighter it has higher base hp, more hp per level, more surges, can make saves at the beginning of it's turn rather than at the end, and can even use their Con modifier for AC if you want.

The only good thing they have over the fighter is the ability to make a second save at the beginning of their turns.

HPs are a one-time resource. Once they get hit once, they lose all advantage over the fighter in those terms.

However, they will almost always have lower AC than fighters and get hit more over the course of the entire combat, making them actually squishier.

 

[Rechan]

So an adjacent, marked enemy can shift one space away, and attack his allies.

Assuming that there are allies a shift-away from the Warden. If the Warden charges in to engage the enemy first, a shift won't get them far.

A lot of warden powers create difficult terrain near the warden, which prevents shifting.

Just to point out, having difficult terrain in a close burst 1 doesn't do anything for the warden unless the enemy is trying to shift around him, or maybe get a flank going. Because difficult terrain does jack when someone is trying to move OUT of it (starting their turn in DT, and thus shift out into non-DT). It only hampers movement when someone tries to move in and through it.

A Close Burst 2 of DT is much more effective, yes. Alas, that's a level 1 daily to benefit from.

 

[Cadfan]

Assuming that there are allies a shift-away from the Warden. If the Warden charges in to engage the enemy first, a shift won't get them far.

There will be allies a shift away from the warden very, very, very frequently. By definition, every time an ally helps the warden flank, a one space shift will put the marked enemy one space away from the warden and adjacent to the warden's ally.

Just to point out, having difficult terrain in a close burst 1 doesn't do anything for the warden unless the enemy is trying to shift around him, or maybe get a flank going. Because difficult terrain does jack when someone is trying to move OUT of it (starting their turn in DT, and thus shift out into non-DT). It only hampers movement when someone tries to move in and through it.

Gah, you're right. Still, a lot of the Warden's encounter powers do prevent the "shift away and attack" trick. All four of the level 3 encounter powers will do this. One forbids shifting, one knocks the target prone, one lets you shift after someone who shifts away as an immediate reaction, and one dazes the target.

 

[Starfox]

Sounds like the Warden would love the whip - it only does 1d4 damage, but its an off-hand, one-handed reach weapon.

 

[Cadfan]

Starfox- Hmm... You're right... He'd need to multiclass if he wanted to use the fancy whip feats, but multiclassing isn't that big of a penalty. He'd either end up using a whip/sword combo, or giving up the sword and using a whip/heavy shield. The former does more damage, but the latter has better defense.

I... I think I really like that idea.