Warden's Grasp

[corwyn77]

Am I misreading this or is the Warden the only defender who can't actually punish a marked foe who wants to attack his ally?

AFAICT, nothing stops an enemy from shifting away and attacking a different opponent. Grasp allows a slide/slow/no shift for this turn only after the attack. So all it really seems to do is to let your ally freely move somewhere else, correct?

Barring dailies like Winter's Herald and similar, of course.

 

[Shin Okada]

That is why some warden prefer to use a reach weapon instead of using shield and one-handed weapon.

And even if you are using a reach weapon, it doesn't work against a foe which shifts and then charges onto an ally far away.

But that does not mean a warden is not good at defending. For example, Warden do mark a lot of opponents at once. And there are many powers which uses those marks in various ways. Warden also has a lot of forced movement powers and zone powers which can control the position of opponents, thus removing troublesome melee combatants from fragile ally. Each defenders has their own way of defending.

 

[Anathos]

Am I misreading this or is the Warden the only defender who can't actually punish a marked foe who wants to attack his ally?

AFAICT, nothing stops an enemy from shifting away and attacking a different opponent. Grasp allows a slide/slow/no shift for this turn only after the attack. So all it really seems to do is to let your ally freely move somewhere else, correct?

Barring dailies like Winter's Herald and similar, of course.

No, there's also Warden's Fury, which is like the Fighter's Combat Challenge, but isn't triggered by a shift. Warden's Defending happens over two rounds: a Grasped enemy can't shift on their next turn, so they're staying adjacent to the Warden for a round, which means they'll be triggering Warden's Fury or an OA unless they target the Warden.

 

[ourchair]

As someone who played a Warden for 11 levels and has a lot of experience with a fighter, I'd have to admit that playing a Warden is tricky.

They still have options for punishing enemies, but they require some setup (immobilizing the enemy, cornering it or slowing it).

Punishment notwithstanding, their big deal (along with the Battlemind) is that it is low cost action for them to mark multiple enemies at once, whereas marking is attached to attacks in the case of Paladins and Fighters.

In practice, this means that their ability to slap -2 on MULTIPLE monsters is offset by a requirement of tactical forethought, while (pre-sanction) Paladins and Fighters simply concentrate on one foe and deal relatively automatic punishment.

 

[corwyn77]

No, there's also Warden's Fury, which is like the Fighter's Combat Challenge, but isn't triggered by a shift. Warden's Defending happens over two rounds: a Grasped enemy can't shift on their next turn, so they're staying adjacent to the Warden for a round, which means they'll be triggering Warden's Fury or an OA unless they target the Warden.

I know all about Fury. I was referring the ease of which enemies avoid punishment by shifting away and attacking.

If grasp worked that way, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

"The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn."

Since the reaction happens after the attack, but still during the enemy's turn, all it does is restrict movement THIS turn.

 

[corwyn77]

That is why some warden prefer to use a reach weapon instead of using shield and one-handed weapon.

And even if you are using a reach weapon, it doesn't work against a foe which shifts and then charges onto an ally far away.

But that does not mean a warden is not good at defending. For example, Warden do mark a lot of opponents at once. And there are many powers which uses those marks in various ways. Warden also has a lot of forced movement powers and zone powers which can control the position of opponents, thus removing troublesome melee combatants from fragile ally. Each defenders has their own way of defending.

That's true, and the multiple marks are nice, as are the forced movement powers. I'm not saying they are bad defenders. And I do decent damage with the (likely broken) Crippling Crush feat. But wardens are the ONLY one whose punishment can be easily avoided, barring encounter/dailies (a limited resource at low levels).

fighters punish shifting/attacking
paladins punish wherever you are
swordmages teleport and punish from a distance
battlemind shift with the marked enemy

 

[Anathos]

I know all about Fury. I was referring the ease of which enemies avoid punishment by shifting away and attacking.

If grasp worked that way, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

"The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn."

Since the reaction happens after the attack, but still during the enemy's turn, all it does is restrict movement THIS turn.

Not if they're shift-charging, or if they've already used their move and minor action. Their turn is already over by the time the Reaction takes place.

 

[corwyn77]

Not if they're shift-charging, or if they've already used their move and minor action. Their turn is already over by the time the Reaction takes place.

In both cases, it is still your turn. You can still spend an action point, end of turn stuff like saves and, in the latter case, free actions. So no, your turn isn't over yet. You just can take no more actions. Significant difference. Besides, in all other cases the language is quite clear - end of your next turn.

 

[DracoSuave]

Am I misreading this or is the Warden the only defender who can't actually punish a marked foe who wants to attack his ally?

Yeah, they're sticky, not punishy. Contrast with assault swordmages, and paladins who are unsticky, but punishy.

AFAICT, nothing stops an enemy from shifting away and attacking a different opponent. Grasp allows a slide/slow/no shift for this turn only after the attack. So all it really seems to do is to let your ally freely move somewhere else, correct?

Protip: If you don't want to get shift-attacked, don't stand where an enemy can easily shift-attack you. The problem here is really bad positioning on the part of the player. The warden is plenty sticky provided you don't do something dumb like put yourself right where the enemy can hit you freely.

I suggest standing behind the warden, so that an enemy has to shift beside the warden if he wants to pummel you today.

This, of course, is hardly a problem unique to the warden. Any defender not named 'fighter' or 'battlemind' has this issue to some degree.

Barring dailies like Winter's Herald and similar, of course.

Or at-will powers that make shift-attack a bad idea.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

The problem here is really bad positioning on the part of the player. The warden is plenty sticky provided you don't do something dumb like put yourself right where the enemy can hit you freely.

I hate to be pedantic -- though only a little -- but positioning my PC where it can be attacked by someone shift-charging away from a Warden will often be anything but dumb. Tactical play in D&D is all about tradeoffs. If I can inflict more damage now or set up a high damage turn for the next round, it may well be worth it for me to take a chance on being attacked.

After all, the shift-charging creature will still be Marked (and thus have -2 to hit) and will have to use a basic attack, which may be a relatively weak one. Also, because of the charge, the creature will be unable to follow up with a minor action attack -- I know, those are uncommon, but in some cases it's a factor.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the shift-charging creature is not (usually) the only foe remaining in the encounter. Laying oneself open to that attack may be a result of sheltering oneself from attacks by all of the other creatures.