I think that's probably correct, although I'm not totally sure. I could accept a ruling that multiple-attack-spells are faster than multiple-attack Attack Actions, and that you can't move between them, or attack between them. Although I don't honestly know what the intent is, or even whether there is an intent; it's possible the devs simply didn't think about it.
D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast
- Thread starter Otterscrubber
- Start date
I think that's probably correct, although I'm not totally sure. I could accept a ruling that multiple-attack-spells are faster than multiple-attack Attack Actions, and that you can't move between them, or attack between them. Although I don't honestly know what the intent is, or even whether there is an intent; it's possible the devs simply didn't think about it.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
Yup, I think this definitely falls into the 'huh, that's weird, didn't think about that' interaction place. Which is why I discount cries of 'it's obvious' and 'the rules are clear on this.' It isn't and they aren't. This is a strange place.
I am reminded of the ambiguity over "affected by the spell" in previous editions. Which, on investigation, still sort of exists in 5e. General question: If something affects a given number of hit points of creatures, but allows a save-for-negate or other way to not affect creatures, are the creatures which "are not affected" counted against your total of "affected"? (My eventual conclusion was that they are, because otherwise you have a weird situation in which the saving throw made by one creature can cause another creature to be affected that wouldn't have been otherwise.)
And we have a similar thing with sleep, now, because you select targets in order by hit points, ignoring unconscious creatures, and it has no effect on undead or creatures immune to being charmed. So if you have several undead and several living creatures which can be charmed, and the undead have lower hit points, do they get selected first, and counted against the spell's limit, even though they are not affected? So far as I can tell, RAW they are, because the target selection doesn't say anything about validity of targets except "not unconscious".
And we have a similar thing with sleep, now, because you select targets in order by hit points, ignoring unconscious creatures, and it has no effect on undead or creatures immune to being charmed. So if you have several undead and several living creatures which can be charmed, and the undead have lower hit points, do they get selected first, and counted against the spell's limit, even though they are not affected? So far as I can tell, RAW they are, because the target selection doesn't say anything about validity of targets except "not unconscious".
Arial Black
Adventurer
The question has come up about whether you can use a readied action to trigger (and resolve) after the first attack of a multi-attack spell, or whether the multiple rays happen too quickly to respond to individually.
What is true for the caster is true for others, in terms of the time between beams.
* if the caster has enough time between beams to shoot one beam, see what it does, then use that observation to decide who to target next, then others have enough time to react between beams with readied actions, including readied dispels
* if the beams are too close together in time to allow others to react to one beam before all of the beams resolve, then the beams are too close together to see what one beam does before deciding who to aim the next beam at
On the subject of readied spells: normally, a spell needs to be 'cast' before its duration begins (the casting process is not in and of itself 'magic'), and then its duration immediately begins. When a spell is readied, the casting process (VSM components) is fully completed, but the spell duration does not begin until the reaction is taken in response to a valid trigger.
The 'spell effect' (according to the spellcasting chapter) is the wording underneath the spell's stat block. This is what happens after the casting process has been completed and the duration of the spell has begun. But readied spells have not begun yet; they do not exist yet and therefore cannot be dispelled before they are released.
However, a (normally) cast eldritch blast has no gap (or overlap) between the completion of the casting (VSM components) and the duration beginning. All of the 'spell effect' occurs entirely within the duration of a spell, and since EB is instantaneous, then all of its beams exist in that instant.
If 'that instant' lasts long enough for the caster to shoot a beam, observe the result, then decide who to aim at next, then since the first beam must be a valid trigger for a readied dispel then 'that instant' does indeed last long enough to be dispelled (contrary to chapter 10); the dispel occurs after EB's duration begins but before its duration ends.
Remember that, RAW, the only reason that 'instantaneous spells cannot be dispelled' is 'because the magic only exists for an instant', and not because instantaneous spells are made out of a special dispel-proof kind of magic.
What is true for the caster is true for others, in terms of the time between beams.
* if the caster has enough time between beams to shoot one beam, see what it does, then use that observation to decide who to target next, then others have enough time to react between beams with readied actions, including readied dispels
* if the beams are too close together in time to allow others to react to one beam before all of the beams resolve, then the beams are too close together to see what one beam does before deciding who to aim the next beam at
On the subject of readied spells: normally, a spell needs to be 'cast' before its duration begins (the casting process is not in and of itself 'magic'), and then its duration immediately begins. When a spell is readied, the casting process (VSM components) is fully completed, but the spell duration does not begin until the reaction is taken in response to a valid trigger.
The 'spell effect' (according to the spellcasting chapter) is the wording underneath the spell's stat block. This is what happens after the casting process has been completed and the duration of the spell has begun. But readied spells have not begun yet; they do not exist yet and therefore cannot be dispelled before they are released.
However, a (normally) cast eldritch blast has no gap (or overlap) between the completion of the casting (VSM components) and the duration beginning. All of the 'spell effect' occurs entirely within the duration of a spell, and since EB is instantaneous, then all of its beams exist in that instant.
If 'that instant' lasts long enough for the caster to shoot a beam, observe the result, then decide who to aim at next, then since the first beam must be a valid trigger for a readied dispel then 'that instant' does indeed last long enough to be dispelled (contrary to chapter 10); the dispel occurs after EB's duration begins but before its duration ends.
Remember that, RAW, the only reason that 'instantaneous spells cannot be dispelled' is 'because the magic only exists for an instant', and not because instantaneous spells are made out of a special dispel-proof kind of magic.
Noctem
Explorer
We got the official response earlier. If the trigger is an attack, you can resolve your readied action between multiple attacks within the same action. However, that doesn't mean any of the other stuff you just posted is true. There's really no need to keep posting this, we read it the first 20 times.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
That's a valid chain of reasoning. I'm not sure I agree, but I appreciate you taking the time to present it for consideration.
@Arial Black I will continue consider 'instantaneous' to apply to the effects of the beams/the individual beams and not the whole time period of targeting/beam/damage/repeat. Nothing breaks for me with that interpretation.
As for ready actions between spell attacks JC would allow them to trigger of individual attacks. I'm not a fan of that for spells, personally.
I will continue to not consider a readied dispel magic to be a viable replacement or even half power replacement for counterspell.
As for ready actions between spell attacks JC would allow them to trigger of individual attacks. I'm not a fan of that for spells, personally.
I will continue to not consider a readied dispel magic to be a viable replacement or even half power replacement for counterspell.
I think this is the key point that hasn't really been addressed by any of JC's rulings. I don't think that second paragraph is necessarily true. I think it'd be logically plausible, and by default I would think it's good game design, but it's not actually been specified, and assumptions like that are often wrong in game rules.
Arial Black
Adventurer
In your own game you can do what you want, but as part of a rules debate, why would you have us believe that 'duration' (which is defined as the period of time the entire spell effect exists) means something totally different for eldritch blast? This is not four spells, each with an instantaneous duration! It is a single spell whose duration covers all four beams.
Correct. You cannot target the casting of a spell (the VSM components) with dispel magic because chanting words and gesturing are not magical effects, and the spell effect does not begin until the casting is finished, by which time it is too late to prevent the effect from starting (the duration beginning).
However, once the VSM components of eldritch blast are completed, the spell effect (four beams of crackling energy streak towards opponents) then the spell effect does exist and may be targeted by a dispel, if the spell effect's duration has not yet expired by the time the dispel goes off.
If the beams are effectively simultaneous, with no time to react until they all hit (which would be true for both caster and dispeller), then the beams have come and gone so quickly that there is nothing to dispel.
But, if there is enough time between beams for the caster to see what the first beam did before aiming the next, then there is enough time for the dispeller to release his already cast dispel magic. He has a valid target because the spell duration is still ongoing at that point; the spell duration (whether you call it 'instantaneous' or not) begins with the first beam and doesn't end until the last beam. Since it is dispelled after the first beam but before the second, EB is an existing spell at the time it is hit with the dispel.
I don't know why JC wants it to work this way, but if the spell does work this way then the consequence is that it can be dispelled, contrary to what he wrote about instantaneous spells.
Arial Black
Adventurer
If the caster has enough time to:-
*shoot first beam
*observe the effect of the damage caused by that beam
*decide, based on whether or not the first target falls, who to target with the next beam
*repeat this whole process two more times!
Then the readied dispeller must have enough time to:-
*observe the first beam being shot
*release his already cast dispel magic, without even waiting to see what effect the first beam's damage had on its target
There cannot be enough time for the caster to target after seeing the results of a beam, without also giving enough time for it to be dispelled by a readied spell.
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