D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast

[Ovinomancer]

+1 that's one of the more basic discussion non-starters. It feels like this has been his point of view for this entire thread tbh.

Dear Mr. Pot,

I take exception to your baseless accusations of color. Please refrain.

Sincerely,

Mr. Kettle

 

[Noctem]

Dear Mr. Pot,

I take exception to your baseless accusations of color. Please refrain.

Sincerely,

Mr. Kettle

I've admitted in this thread to being wrong and I changed my interpretation of things multiple times as a result of what others have posted (like dev tweets or good arguments). I've asked questions, suggested people contact devs over twitter to advance the discussion, etc.. I have never and will never literally say that it doesn't matter what anyone says, I am correct no matter what. Only the sith deal in absolutes

But seriously, if you can't help yourself Ovinomancer, just don't post.. remember?

 

[ryan92084]

...snip
If you agree that the components must be completed before the spell effect begins, this means that the spellcasting is over by the time the first beam is shot, therefore counterspell has no target but dispel magic does if it is readied to go off after the first beam.

snip...

In addition to ovinomancer's points above I also disagree.
To say "spellcasting is over by the time the first beam is shot" is generally untrue. When the cast a spell action/bonus/reaction is used then casting a spell in 5e includes the preamble, finger waggling, components, targeting, effects, etc and all of this considered to be part of spellcasting. This can be seen in why features that trigger off "cast(s) a spell" occur after the effect/action. If this wasn't the case any spell with a cast time of one action that includes attacks would be rolling those attacks outside of the normal action/bonus/reaction economy.

Of course the ready action adds exceptions to the standard methods of spellcasting but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[Noctem]

This can be seen in why features that trigger off "cast(s) a spell" occur after the effect/action. If this wasn't the case any spell with a cast time of one action that includes attacks would be rolling those attacks outside of the normal action/bonus/reaction economy.

To which features are you referring to specifically and why do you feel justified in claiming that they are cause to believe that they explain why the 5e action economy system doesn't allow for this or that?

 

[ryan92084]

I could have worded that more carefully. The second part of that quote was an observation about general situation and not specifically in reference to the previous sentence. To rephrase.

If spellcasting did not include all of the parts (including effects, etc) then spells that take an action/bonus/reaction to cast but include an attack roll would be doing this roll outside of that action/bonus/reaction and breaking the standard economy.

 

[Noctem]

I could have worded that more carefully. The second part of that quote was an observation about general situation and not specifically in reference to the previous sentence. To rephrase.

If spellcasting did not include all of the parts (including effects, etc) then spells that take an action/bonus/reaction to cast but include an attack roll would be doing this roll outside of that action/bonus/reaction and breaking the standard economy.

Ok

 

[seebs]

I could have worded that more carefully. The second part of that quote was an observation about general situation and not specifically in reference to the previous sentence. To rephrase.

If spellcasting did not include all of the parts (including effects, etc) then spells that take an action/bonus/reaction to cast but include an attack roll would be doing this roll outside of that action/bonus/reaction and breaking the standard economy.

But if it does, readied action spellcasting wouldn't work, as you've "cast the spell" on your turn, and just take the readied action to "release" the magic -- which is when any attack rolls would happen.

Conclusion: The release-of-energy/targeting/etc. is Not An Action, and doesn't count as part of the action economy. The readied action uses your reaction to let you Do Something, but the actual thing being done wouldn't have taken an action if it had been on your turn.

 

[ryan92084]

But if it does, readied action spellcasting wouldn't work, as you've "cast the spell" on your turn, and just take the readied action to "release" the magic -- which is when any attack rolls would happen.

Conclusion: The release-of-energy/targeting/etc. is Not An Action, and doesn't count as part of the action economy. The readied action uses your reaction to let you Do Something, but the actual thing being done wouldn't have taken an action if it had been on your turn.

As pointed out in the past readied action is an exception that adds steps where there normally aren't. Ready action doesn't just say you cast a spell as normal it says "you cast a spell as normal but...". It's akin to having a sandwich with an eating time of one action or you can ready action that sandwich where you eat the sandwich as normal but save the pickles for later. The later doesn't change the former it adds its own steps.

Ready action adds a stop/step that doesn't otherwise exist in spellcasting.

Also your interpretation ruins the intended timings on features that trigger on cast(s) a spell.

 

[seebs]

That's an interesting point. If you ready a spell, and someone has something triggering off "cast a spell", I think their thing triggers at the end of your readying, not when you release the spell later. But normally if you said you were readying a response to someone "casting a spell", I'd expect that to go off after the spell's taken effect.

So I have these nice clear intuitions about how it should work, and they contradict each other.

 

[Ovinomancer]

But if it does, readied action spellcasting wouldn't work, as you've "cast the spell" on your turn, and just take the readied action to "release" the magic -- which is when any attack rolls would happen.

Conclusion: The release-of-energy/targeting/etc. is Not An Action, and doesn't count as part of the action economy. The readied action uses your reaction to let you Do Something, but the actual thing being done wouldn't have taken an action if it had been on your turn.

Technically, it shifts the release to your reaction, and so still doesn't violate the action structure.

That's an interesting point. If you ready a spell, and someone has something triggering off "cast a spell", I think their thing triggers at the end of your readying, not when you release the spell later. But normally if you said you were readying a response to someone "casting a spell", I'd expect that to go off after the spell's taken effect.

So I have these nice clear intuitions about how it should work, and they contradict each other.

Not really. You ready for when someone casts a spell. A creature that then readies a spell uses the cast a spell action, and then your reaction goes. Depending on your reaction, you may cause them to make an immediate concentration check and lose their spell. On the other hand, if the same creature instead just casts a spell, your reaction goes after he's finished casting the spell. It's just, in this case, the spell effect occurs as part of the action.