And that kettle of fish is exactly the situation Ariel insists he has answers for- or maybe not. Do you mean reading a spell or readying a reaction to (a spell/the first attack of a spell/starting to cast a spell/the first verbal component in the spell that sounds like "fish"/whatever other trigger the GM has allowed in what was probably poor judgement)?
D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast
- Thread starter Otterscrubber
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And that kettle of fish is exactly the situation Ariel insists he has answers for- or maybe not. Do you mean reading a spell or readying a reaction to (a spell/the first attack of a spell/starting to cast a spell/the first verbal component in the spell that sounds like "fish"/whatever other trigger the GM has allowed in what was probably poor judgement)?
[MENTION=6799940]Zorku[/MENTION] I was referring to to readying a spell using different rules/steps. I lost track of the reason for the component timing discussions a few pages ago.
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] i believe you misspoke in your last post. Reading a spell does not use the cat a spell action.
General musings: I'm not convinced either way about the proper timing for a cast a spell trigger on a really action spell. Since there aren't any obvious RaW or tweets afaik I was looking at some of the features that use the trigger and where it would make the most 'sense' to put them.
Tempestuous magic: could go after the ready action but the release would be my ruling
Wild magic surge: leaning heavily towards release
Mage slayer: I was inclined to say after the ready action but really depends on how the ability works in your head cannon.
These rulings and list aren't definitive by any stretch. Anyone know of some other features with this trigger?
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] i believe you misspoke in your last post. Reading a spell does not use the cat a spell action.
General musings: I'm not convinced either way about the proper timing for a cast a spell trigger on a really action spell. Since there aren't any obvious RaW or tweets afaik I was looking at some of the features that use the trigger and where it would make the most 'sense' to put them.
Tempestuous magic: could go after the ready action but the release would be my ruling
Wild magic surge: leaning heavily towards release
Mage slayer: I was inclined to say after the ready action but really depends on how the ability works in your head cannon.
These rulings and list aren't definitive by any stretch. Anyone know of some other features with this trigger?
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Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
It does say that you 'cast the spell as normal' although I can see reading it as using the Ready action. It's a tad unclear, and I don't think it really matters for this purpose.
It specifically says that the only difference is that you hold on to the energy for later, and that you're concentrating to keep it that way.
Seems to me that, since the book doesn't really tell you much about time scales smaller than action/bonus action/reaction, it would make more sense for them to say less if the spell all happens at the trigger. The first paragraph in Ready already gave us the broad idea of spending your action now and your reaction later to perform actions with specific timing, so if they said nothing about spell casting we'd all just assume that you cast the spell real quick when you need it to happen. Instead of that they used up some of their space on the page to tell us that spells specifically don't work that way. "you cast the spell as normal but hold its energy"
Why would any of that language be there if those things didn't go right when the spell is readied?
[MENTION=6799940]Zorku[/MENTION] it could be worded that way for a few reasons. It indicates why you are able to able to fit a full action spell in a reaction (most of the fiddly bits are done). It explains why concentration is required (difficult to pause casting in the middle). Also indicates that the spell slot is consumed with the rest action and not the trigger.
To use my sandwich example again is it truly eaten until the last bit is gone? Most parents wouldn't say so. It certainly is mostly eaten but is that enough to trigger features? However the certainly isn't enough left to use as a sandwich for your next meal.
If you don't like sandwiches the same parallel can be made with fly fishing and then the usage of cast would be maintained. Fly fishing takes one action to cast a line. If you ready ready fly fishing you cast the line as normal but hold the forward release for a reaction.
Just food for thought... Now i really want a fish sandwich
To use my sandwich example again is it truly eaten until the last bit is gone? Most parents wouldn't say so. It certainly is mostly eaten but is that enough to trigger features? However the certainly isn't enough left to use as a sandwich for your next meal.
If you don't like sandwiches the same parallel can be made with fly fishing and then the usage of cast would be maintained. Fly fishing takes one action to cast a line. If you ready ready fly fishing you cast the line as normal but hold the forward release for a reaction.
Just food for thought... Now i really want a fish sandwich
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Noctem
Explorer
Imo this would be the breakdown:
Declare you use the ready action + pick trigger.
Expend Action for your turn
Expend the associated spell slot
Perform / use up any V, S, M requirements
Finish casting the spell
*Pause*
At this point the spell is cast but the effects, the energy, is being held until released when the designated trigger is met. Once that happens the effects of the spell are released.
This means that you can only use Counterspell when the ready action is taken and the spell is cast, not when it is released later. You can't dispel anything because there's nothing yet to dispel until the spell effects are released. Again Dispel Magic is about targeting the effects, not the spell itself. If concentration is lost, the spell is also lost. This also means that the picking of targets, area the spell will affect, etc.. has not yet happened since the effects of the spell have not yet happened. The only thing that has happened is that the spell has been cast and held before the effects could occur.
Declare you use the ready action + pick trigger.
Expend Action for your turn
Expend the associated spell slot
Perform / use up any V, S, M requirements
Finish casting the spell
*Pause*
At this point the spell is cast but the effects, the energy, is being held until released when the designated trigger is met. Once that happens the effects of the spell are released.
This means that you can only use Counterspell when the ready action is taken and the spell is cast, not when it is released later. You can't dispel anything because there's nothing yet to dispel until the spell effects are released. Again Dispel Magic is about targeting the effects, not the spell itself. If concentration is lost, the spell is also lost. This also means that the picking of targets, area the spell will affect, etc.. has not yet happened since the effects of the spell have not yet happened. The only thing that has happened is that the spell has been cast and held before the effects could occur.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
[MENTION=6802559]ryan92084[/MENTION]
You know, on reflection, I think you have an interesting point. Either all of the spellcasting fiddly bits are done and the effect is in place but being held for later release (meaning there's an effect hanging out) OR you do most of it during the action but there are still some parts that need to be finished later, in which case you're technically not done casting until the release. (There's a third option, where you fully cast the spell, concentrate on the not there spell/effect for a bit, and then release the no actually there spell later, with absolutely nothing in between the action and the reaction, but that's boring).
In the first case, it would make sense that dispel might work, because you're literally holding the effect of the spell for later release, but could only counterspell on the initial casting action. In the second, you couldn't dispel, because there's no effects yet, but you could counterspell -- when? That's a bit more vague. I'd definitely say on the release, and probably on the initial casting action, but maybe even in between?
Nifty. I think, though that the rules favor the first explanation more than the second, due to the wording 'cast the spell as normal.' So, you're either holding the finished effect for release* or you're holding a not spell/not effect.
*Huh. Casting the spell 'as normal' would imply that you go through all of the steps, yes? If that spell generates attacks, would you not then also choose targets, but without the resolutions until the effect is released? Nope, in thinking, the attacks are the effect of those kinds of spells, so releasing the effects would generate the attacks then, not during casting. Please ignore this stream-of-posting thought.
You know, on reflection, I think you have an interesting point. Either all of the spellcasting fiddly bits are done and the effect is in place but being held for later release (meaning there's an effect hanging out) OR you do most of it during the action but there are still some parts that need to be finished later, in which case you're technically not done casting until the release. (There's a third option, where you fully cast the spell, concentrate on the not there spell/effect for a bit, and then release the no actually there spell later, with absolutely nothing in between the action and the reaction, but that's boring).
In the first case, it would make sense that dispel might work, because you're literally holding the effect of the spell for later release, but could only counterspell on the initial casting action. In the second, you couldn't dispel, because there's no effects yet, but you could counterspell -- when? That's a bit more vague. I'd definitely say on the release, and probably on the initial casting action, but maybe even in between?
Nifty. I think, though that the rules favor the first explanation more than the second, due to the wording 'cast the spell as normal.' So, you're either holding the finished effect for release* or you're holding a not spell/not effect.
*Huh. Casting the spell 'as normal' would imply that you go through all of the steps, yes? If that spell generates attacks, would you not then also choose targets, but without the resolutions until the effect is released? Nope, in thinking, the attacks are the effect of those kinds of spells, so releasing the effects would generate the attacks then, not during casting. Please ignore this stream-of-posting thought.
The ready action itself doesn't need any of that. You're already fitting full action attacks into it, and full action shoves, full action med kit uses, etc. The exception proves the rule here; there's enough time to do all that other crap but spells are different.
Yeah, the spell slot is consumed, but why? Looking at how balance works in this system it's mostly about average damage output over three rounds, and eating up your reaction to cast a spell at a different time decreases your potential damage output significantly, so this is either really powerful for applying conditions (it's not,) has a higher chance of hitting enemies* (maybe,) or is only there for consistency.
*Their math doesn't actually care about this either.
With fly fishing I think it's that casting motion that counts, but that the confusion here is coming from a too literal interpretation of the "your reaction happens after trigger" rule. The intention here is clearly to stop people from thinking that a readied action is meant to interrupt. You've still got some capacity to interrupt certain kinds of things, just not anything of the 1 action variety. With a readied spell you're looking at something that takes 1 action and 1 reaction, and not at the same time either.
I totally get having to wait for somebody to punch you in the face before you react to it, but if they sit there cartoonishly winding up the punch like they're Popeye, then I think you've already waited long enough for your readied action.
But if we're still talking about counterspell that explicitly happens while you... cast the line. If anything it's too late once you've released it forward.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
Just out of general interest, Crawford has said on twitter in his 'as a DM' unofficial voice that he would allow triggers such as 'when [target] begins to cast a spell' that would then allow the readied action to interrupt the spell casting. He said this in reference to using silence as a poor man's counterspell by casting it before another spellcaster can finish their spell.
Personally, I would not allow a trigger such that it would interrupt like that. I've no problem going between attacks, but 'begins casting a spell' is a line to fine for me. I'd tell a player that wanted to do that that they could trigger on the casting of a spell, but the reaction would occur after the spellcasting.
Personally, I would not allow a trigger such that it would interrupt like that. I've no problem going between attacks, but 'begins casting a spell' is a line to fine for me. I'd tell a player that wanted to do that that they could trigger on the casting of a spell, but the reaction would occur after the spellcasting.
Noctem
Explorer
I wouldn't allow the trigger either in most cases simply because doing so creates a predecent that spells not specifically made to interrupt spell casting (as in spells other than Counterspell) can be used to interrupt other spells as they are being cast. Not saying I would never allow for that kind of stuff, but there's a spell specifically made to do it.
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