D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast

[Arial Black]

But we have an absolutely definite rule: If you ready a spell, the slot is consumed the moment you finish readying it, whether or not you ever take the reaction, or lose your concentration, or whatever else.

So if there's anything that has to happen during the reaction, that thing is happening after the spell slot is consumed. All the things necessary to finish consuming the spell slot happened on your turn. By contrast, if you aren't done casting the spell (as with a spell with a casting time longer than one action), the spell slot isn't consumed.

So we have pretty clear evidence that, when you ready a spell, you finish casting it on your turn.

Hooray! We agree that the casting (VSM components) must be fully completed before any of the spell effect begins.

 

[Arial Black]

I don't rule out the overlap. I'm perfectly fine with you ruling it your way. It makes sense, I would be perfectly happy to play that way. But it's not RAW.

I also see little point in providing a different conjecture. For one, Zorku's done a fine enough job for that. You've already disagreed with that, and decided that you're right and Zorku's conjecture is a failure, but that's all based on your assumptions, not RAW. I don't really see the worth in putting out something largely similar to the work Zorku's done for you to make the same points over again. Especially since my argument here is that those points are your assumptions, and, while logically sound based on those assumptions, are not actually grounded in RAW.

If the RAW was, say, '2+2', but never said '4', it wouldn't be mere 'conjecture', a mere 'assumption', that '4' is true as an unavoidable consequence of the RAW.

Here, the RAW that says the components must be provided or the spell fails results in the unavoidable conclusion that the spell effect absolutely cannot begin until the casting is complete, whether it uses those words or not.

Zorku's sequence of events is not legal by the rules, simply because he has the spell effect beginning at a time when the components have not been, and may never be, provided. Therefore, RAW, the spell fails.

There is no sequence of events that allows the overlap!

It's a bold statement, in that a single valid sequence would show that I was wrong at the top of my voice, and if such a sequence existed then I'd expect to see such a post appear sharpish, because who wouldn't want to burst so pompous a bubble? Which indicates how certain I must be.

Prick away!

 

[Ovinomancer]

If the RAW was, say, '2+2', but never said '4', it wouldn't be mere 'conjecture', a mere 'assumption', that '4' is true as an unavoidable consequence of the RAW.

Here, the RAW that says the components must be provided or the spell fails results in the unavoidable conclusion that the spell effect absolutely cannot begin until the casting is complete, whether it uses those words or not.

That's not an unavoidable conclusion. For instance, in a normal IC engine, you must have a spark for it to start, but that spark still has to be there for the entire time it's running. You can't take a statement of 'X must be present for Y to happen. When Y happens, X will be fully comsumed' to mean 'X must be present and fully consumed for Y to happen.' Doesn't actually work that way. You're changing the logic of the statement to include conditions not actually present.

Zorku's sequence of events is not legal by the rules, simply because he has the spell effect beginning at a time when the components have not been, and may never be, provided. Therefore, RAW, the spell fails.

I disagree with your analysis. You can't start casting unless the components are present, and I don't recall Zorku saying otherwise.

There is no sequence of events that allows the overlap!

It's a bold statement, in that a single valid sequence would show that I was wrong at the top of my voice, and if such a sequence existed then I'd expect to see such a post appear sharpish, because who wouldn't want to burst so pompous a bubble? Which indicates how certain I must be.

Prick away!

You wish to cast a spell. The spell has v, s, and m component. In order to cast the spell, you must have an appropriate spell slot and the components present. At this point, you've reached the entirety of the necessary RAW to cast a spell. The only thing RAW wise you need to do now is use the cast a spell action (or ready). At the end of the cast a spell action, a few things will be true (absent counterspel): the effect will be in place (or done, if instantaneous), the components will be consumed (if consumed), and the spell slot will be consumed.

So, we can go with your interpretation, which says that the components and slot are consumed, and then the effect happens, and then the action is over. That's fine, but not required by the RAW. Or you can go with saying that you start with the components and slot present, then the effect happens, then the components and slot are consumed. That works by RAW, too, because there's no need to address actual timing in the spellcasting at all -- the only thing that can stop it is counterspell, and it works regardless of the order of events.

Personally, I like spellcasting that has the components woven into the delivery of the effect. Part of the S is point to where you want the fireball to explode, or which target the EB beam is aimed at. That works for me. And it still works if you're holding the spell with a readied action -- the release of the effect includes the final S or V or M pieces. If the spell is ruined due to damage and concentration in the meantime, the M component is still ruined because it's already charged with the magic and so burns away when the spell is ruined. The slot provides the charge, and so is spent regardless.

But, again, the fact that you've changed the logical statements of RAW to add timing not present and then insist that you're right because your other assumptions don't work unless you use your first assumption is really just an extended begging the question.

 

[Arial Black]

You wish to cast a spell. The spell has v, s, and m component. In order to cast the spell, you must have an appropriate spell slot and the components present.

What does "have the components present" mean for the verbal component?

The verbal component is a series of words, the 'magic words' that must be spoken in order for the casting to succeed.

'Having the words present' is a statement that doesn't make sense. The words have an element of time built in, in that the words must be said in the correct order, one after the other. When the last word is being spoken, all the previous words have already been spoken; if there are still some words left unsaid then you have spoken the words out of order and therefore not provided the verbal component, which is not a specific collection of words said in any order, but a precise phrase spoken correctly.

Half-way through the phrase, the words you have already spoken are in the past, and any you haven't said yet lie in a possible future and don't exist yet. Only one word can said to be 'present' at any one time, but the entire phrase, the verbal component, has not been provided (and is not 'present') until the final word has been spoken.

Until the last word of the correctly spoken phrase has been said, you have failed to provide the verbal component and the spell doesn't happen. When you have said the entire phrase correctly, the spell begins (assuming all the other criteria are met). The spell cannot begin before the components have been provided, therefore cannot begin while the verbal component is being chanted but not yet complete.

This is not a mere assumption, but an unavoidable consequence of the RAW.

 

[seebs]

I don't buy that the slot being spent means that you've completed casting the spell. Especially not if you go with the interpretation that Counterspell interrupts spellcasting. Because, in that case, the slot's spent even though casting was never completed.

You have to spend a slot to cast a spell. The slot being spent doesn't necessarily mean the spellcasting is complete. There's no structure or order to spellcasting to suggest that this is so. However, that's a perfectly valid ruling to make, if it suits you (general you).

There is, though! The longer-than-one-action rules tell us that you don't (normally) spend the slot unless you complete casting. If you try to cast a spell with a casting time of 8 hours, and you are interrupted after 7 hours, 59 minutes, and 9 rounds, you still have the slot.

Counterspell, I think, is a special case which somehow yanks the spell energy; in general, if casting is not complete, you haven't lost the slot.

 

[seebs]

Hooray! We agree that the casting (VSM components) must be fully completed before any of the spell effect begins.

I am not entirely sure of this. Imagine, if you will, that a spell has three states: Not-yet-cast, casting "complete", and "releasing effect". And some of the components actually happen during "releasing effect".

There is no rule that says "if your component pouch is stolen after you ready a spell, but before you take your reaction, you cannot use the readied spell". There's also no rule that says you can. So we don't know whether or not any more components are happening. The spell slot has been consumed, so "casting" is complete, but we don't know that there aren't components involved in the release as well.

 

[Ovinomancer]

There is, though! The longer-than-one-action rules tell us that you don't (normally) spend the slot unless you complete casting. If you try to cast a spell with a casting time of 8 hours, and you are interrupted after 7 hours, 59 minutes, and 9 rounds, you still have the slot.

Counterspell, I think, is a special case which somehow yanks the spell energy; in general, if casting is not complete, you haven't lost the slot.

I think I didn't state that clearly. The order I was thinking was 1) begin casting 2) effects happen 3) slot and components spent. That's just as valid within RAW as 1) begin casting 2) slot and components spent 3) effects happen. And both agree with your quite correct notes above.

 

[seebs]

In the readied spell case, "slot spent" clearly happens before "effects happen".

But I don't think we have nearly as definite an answer as to "components spent". And it's not even obvious that all components have to be "spent" at the same time. And with V/S components, it's not even obvious that "spent" is the right question.

Okay, thought experiment: You ready a spell which has verbal components. Someone brings up a silence. Can you now release the readied spell if your trigger happens?

I think... I think I'd probably say you can, because there's nothing saying that things have changed. You can't cast in a silence area, but there's nothing to keep you from releasing a spell already cast.

 

[Ovinomancer]

What does "have the components present" mean for the verbal component?

The verbal component is a series of words, the 'magic words' that must be spoken in order for the casting to succeed.

'Having the words present' is a statement that doesn't make sense. The words have an element of time built in, in that the words must be said in the correct order, one after the other. When the last word is being spoken, all the previous words have already been spoken; if there are still some words left unsaid then you have spoken the words out of order and therefore not provided the verbal component, which is not a specific collection of words said in any order, but a precise phrase spoken correctly.

Half-way through the phrase, the words you have already spoken are in the past, and any you haven't said yet lie in a possible future and don't exist yet. Only one word can said to be 'present' at any one time, but the entire phrase, the verbal component, has not been provided (and is not 'present') until the final word has been spoken.

Until the last word of the correctly spoken phrase has been said, you have failed to provide the verbal component and the spell doesn't happen. When you have said the entire phrase correctly, the spell begins (assuming all the other criteria are met). The spell cannot begin before the components have been provided, therefore cannot begin while the verbal component is being chanted but not yet complete.

This is not a mere assumption, but an unavoidable consequence of the RAW.

No, it's an assumption. The only unavoidable consequence here is your insistence that you're correct, absent any support in the RAW.

First, your entire argument about verbal components is based on your assumption that all components must be completed before the effects occur. You're, once again, begging the question. You're starting with the statement that components must be completed prior to effects, and then showing that this must be so while assuming that it is so to begin with. There's zero reason to say that the verbal component (or somatic or material) usage can't continue into the effects. Saying 'zap!' as part of the verbal components for each release of a burst from EB while jabbing your finger at the target is definitely not disallowed by RAW. You're just insisting that it must be, because you've said that it must be, therefore, well, it must be?

 

[Arial Black]

No, it's an assumption. The only unavoidable consequence here is your insistence that you're correct, absent any support in the RAW.

First, your entire argument about verbal components is based on your assumption that all components must be completed before the effects occur. You're, once again, begging the question. You're starting with the statement that components must be completed prior to effects, and then showing that this must be so while assuming that it is so to begin with. There's zero reason to say that the verbal component (or somatic or material) usage can't continue into the effects. Saying 'zap!' as part of the verbal components for each release of a burst from EB while jabbing your finger at the target is definitely not disallowed by RAW. You're just insisting that it must be, because you've said that it must be, therefore, well, it must be?

My entire argument about verbal components is not based on any 'assumption' that all components must be completed before the effects occur, but is based on the RAW:-

A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it...If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.

Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. the words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.

Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.

Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible (inside a sphere of silence).

Imagine that you start to cast a spell with VS components. What this means, RAW, is that you begin chanting the 'particular combination of sounds', with 'specific pitch and resonance', and also use at least one hand to 'perform these gestures'.

This doesn't take zero time in the world; you begin chanting and gesturing, go through the specific words and actions for that spell, and then complete them.

Imagine that you are half-way through this process when readied spells that cause you to be within a bubble of magical silence and that paralyse you cause you to fail to complete either the verbal or somatic component. Does the spell effect begin?

RAW, no, it absolutely cannot begin. You have failed to provide the particular combination of sounds, because that particular combination would be a different combination if there were some words missing. You have failed to provide the somatic component, because you haven't performed the required set of gestures.

If some of a spell's effect were to appear before the casting was complete, then some of the effect would occur even though you never provided the required verbal and somatic components! This is not legal by the RAW.

The casting process must be complete before the spell effect begins. This is not a mere assumption, but the consequence of the Rules As Written.