Level Up (A5E) Warlock Archetype Curse scaling & Herald multiclassing

[Tessarael]

I'm reading the rules on p457 and it specifically refers to the PB*2 wording and short rest recovery. When you provide a mini exertion pool of PB does that automatically qualify for Exertion Recovery by RAW?

Yes, I assume so. There's no specific rules added for additional exertion points that Fighter or Psyknight get that specifies that they're only recovered on a long rest.

That does make sense regarding their exertion pool. Divorce it from the spell slots. It is still good, as they get a whole bunch of exertion points for their maneuvers.

 

[lichmaster]

Maybe I didn't understand the whole point of this thread, but I'm not sure herald's spell slots/exertion is unbalanced:

• Adepts are the class with the highest amount of exertion per rest at any level after 6 (and they are on par with all other "standard" martials before that)
• Fighters do get slightly less than an adept, but more than all other standard martials, and from level 3 they get to use some maneuvers for a reduced cost, further boosting their effective exertion per rest. As they increase in levels, they can use more maneuvers at a reduced cost, and at level 20 they get to choose maneuver up to degree 3 to use for no cost, which gives them virtually unlimited exertion.
• Rangers at level 9 get to use one maneuver for free out of a menu of 2. Very narrow, but also means virtually unlimited exertion expenditure.
• All others have a standard progression of 2x PB.

Now, heralds do get a ton of exertion if they convert all their spellslots into exertion. However I don't think this to be an issue, because spell slots are recovered on a long rest. If we consider a standard day with 3 encounters, and divide the exertion evenly across encounters, we find that at low levels the effective available exertion per encounter is lower than any other martial class. This then picks up and becomes higher than an adept's, but only at level 17. At that point they'd have so much exertion that it won't probably even be possible to spend it on an encounter. Also, the steep acceleration in gaining exertion comes at the cost of level 3, 4 and 5 slots. The question of rough power equivalence between maneuvers and spells becomes poignant here.

So the issue eventually is one of too steep scaling (too weak at low levels and too strong at high levels). Also while it's true that a 1 level fighter dip is very good fir a herald, it's probably even better for a wizard (they get significant HP boost, proficiency in all weapons and armors, exertion, combat traditions and maneuvers, a fighting stile and a soldiering knack).

So maybe a solution to reduce this steep scaling issue is to give heralds the normal exertion pool, and give them the ability to burn spell slots to get more exertion, but at a higher cost. But at that point I'm not even sure there would be any need.

 

[Anonymous3]

Actually now that I think about it, another fix (nerf) for herald/fighter multiclass would be that if they multiclass into something that gives them a standard pool, they can't sacrifice spells for exertion anymore- they just have the standard martial pb*2 pool

This was mentioned earlier in the discussion but as @W'rkncacnter points out, you're removing a core Herald mechanic if you do.

 

[Anonymous3]

Maybe I didn't understand the whole point of this thread, but I'm not sure herald's spell slots/exertion is unbalanced:

The thread started with trying to figure out if a Warlock dip was worth it for a Herald MC and it turned into suggesting that a fighter dip was the better choice which then morphed into a general Herald MC conversation and how unbalanced Heralds can be if they dip into a fighter... and how that can be resolved.

While I do agree that the fighter dip is strong (for a range of classes) it is hard for me not to think that access to two pool of exertion is not at least unbalanced. I agree with mostly everything you've said here and have made similar arguments in this thread.

This then picks up and becomes higher than an adept's, but only at level 17. At that point they'd have so much exertion that it won't probably even be possible to spend it on an encounter.

It is not hard to burn through exertion and Herald has the huge benefit of choosing when then want more juice. Examples:

• Herald7/Fighter3;
• 29 exertion;
• Two attacks;
• Brute Strength
• Activate Dispelling Assault (2), then add Brute Strength (2 x 4); Shrug it Off (2); Catch Your Breath (2) = 14
  • Do this twice: 2 x 14 = 28
  • Brute strength added damage (4 x 4d6) over two rounds.
• Let's say you don't get a short rest and a battle ensues 10 minutes later. No problem. Burn 10HD for 10d4 (25 exertion). So you can sort of pull off the combo again. With a short rest you're definitely pulling it off again.
• Another combo to burn exertion would to combine Heighted Reflexes (3) and Intuitive Counterattack (2 x 4) and another maneuver (2) that uses your action - 6 attacks costing 13 exertion per round.

This is why I think the limits should be placed on how the slots can be used and how long they last ie., the Herald can use spell slots for exertion but they are super temporary - you get to use it on your turn and any excess is lost (I posted a list earlier in the thread).

 

[lichmaster]

It is not hard to burn through exertion and Herald has the huge benefit of choosing when then want more juice. Examples:

• Herald7/Fighter3;
• 29 exertion;

Should be 28: 8 from fighter (2x4pb) + 20 from herald (burning all 4 level 1 slots and all 3 level 2 slots)

• Two attacks;
• Brute Strength
• Activate Dispelling Assault (2), then add Brute Strength (2 x 4); Shrug it Off (2); Catch Your Breath (2) = 14
  • Do this twice: 2 x 14 = 28
  • Brute strength added damage (4 x 4d6) over two rounds.

Also should be 4x4d8, over 2 rounds

• Let's say you don't get a short rest and a battle ensues 10 minutes later. No problem. Burn 10HD for 10d4 (25 exertion). So you can sort of pull off the combo again. With a short rest you're definitely pulling it off again.

I don't think this would work. IMO you should only be able to recover the "normal" exertion pool from the fighter, as the one coming from slots is coming from slots, it's a separate pool. So you shouldn't be pulling this off again.

• Another combo to burn exertion would to combine Heighted Reflexes (3) and Intuitive Counterattack (2 x 4) and another maneuver (2) that uses your action - 6 attacks costing 13 exertion per round.

This is why I think the limits should be placed on how the slots can be used and how long they last ie., the Herald can use spell slots for exertion but they are super temporary - you get to use it on your turn and any excess is lost (I posted a list earlier in the thread).

Not sure capping their duration does anything to prevent these supernovae, if that's your goal, as converting spell slots into exertion doesn't cost an action, it's just something that can be done at the start of their turn.

One way to to mitigate this nova would be to make the conversion from spell slots to exertion more expensive. Another could be to cap the amount of exertion that can be spent per turn to some arbitrary threshold.

However do keep in mind one thing: spell slots are valuable for a herald (calculated retribution, force of will and crushing haymaker are all great spells IMO), and the usage of exertion for brute strenght not as needed sincce the herald could smite instead (4 day) for the same damage at no cost. In addition, there's empowered smites, which can be used 1/long rest and then is fuelled by spell slots. This is to say that while there is significant potential for nova when burning spell slots to fuel exertion, it also comes at a significant cost and it may not always be worth it.

Edit: Nevermind I think I found a RAW limitation that makes all this nova potential go away: under combat maneuvers "You have a maximum number of exertion points equal to double your proficiency bonus"

 

[Anonymous3]

Should be 28: 8 from fighter (2x4pb) + 20 from herald (burning all 4 level 1 slots and all 3 level 2 slots)

This is correct. I added 1 exertion from Reserves(1) gained at Fighter4 by mistake.

I don't think this would work.

Good call. You are only able to recover PB*2, 8 exertion, so this wouldn't be possible again. Thank goodness.

Nevermind I think I found a RAW limitation that makes all this nova potential go away: under combat maneuvers "You have a maximum number of exertion points equal to double your proficiency bonus"

Thanks for this. I think the wording for the Herald allows you to stack them because it refers to them as a "temporary" pool. It would be great if this could be clarified. See p201 of the AG:

"Instead, at the start of each of your turns you can expend spell slots of 1st-level or higher to gain exertion points that go into a temporary exertion pool which lasts until you start your next long rest."

I agree with everything in your last paragraph because that has been the experience at our table. The spells and features available to the Herald are good and it is not an easy choice to "just" convert them into exertion. I do think that if you had Divine Smite and Brute Strength available, and you needed damage, you'd just stack them.

 

[lichmaster]

"Instead, at the start of each of your turns you can expend spell slots of 1st-level or higher to gain exertion points that go into a temporary exertion pool which lasts until you start your next long rest."

Probably I'm nitpicking, but the wording implies that there's an exertion pool and a temporary exertion pool, which, being different, would stack. But the wording regarding the limit amount of exertion does not refer to pools but just to exertion points. So one way to read this is that the sum of exertion points coming from the standar pool (fighter) and temporary pool (herald) has to be below 2xPB (plus the eventual points coming from reserves).
This interpretation completely removes the maneuvers nova explosion, doesn't require a single change in the rules, and still allows the ferald to potentially have lots of exertion available, at the cost of their precious spell slots.
A more lenient (and more cumbersome to track) interpretation could instead allow the exertion points of each pool to be limited to 2xPB. This retains some nova potential but is naturally capped.

I do think that if you had Divine Smite and Brute Strength available, and you needed damage, you'd just stack them.

Oh yes of course, esp because both can be activated when there's a hit, so there's no risk of wasting usages or exertion, and the choice to use them is particularly rewarding on a crit. This is where a dual wielding ferald activating Dangerous Strikes would really be fearsome, esp if attacking with advantage!

 

[Toan Li]

Much like temporary hit points, temporary exertion doesn't increase your maximum and shouldn't be restored by the usual means. Converting spell slots doesn't make a new, refillable pool, but provides some bonus "single-use" exertion.

 

[lichmaster]

Much like temporary hit points, temporary exertion doesn't increase your maximum

This is the crux IMO. Temp HP do not increase your max hp but do stack with normal HP without limits, so your effective HP can increase without bounds.
If we apply the same reasoning with exertion coming from the standard and temp pool, we have the abovementioned nova potential. If we cap the sum to 2xPB (plus reserves) we don't, but this also diverges from how HP and temp HP work.

 

[Toan Li]

That's where the term "pool" comes into play. Temp HP is not a pool and doesn't stack.
"Spell" Exertion is a pool a can stack when you spend more spell slots.

Otherwise, it's all temporary and I would refer to Temp HP in AG 450 with the "pool" negating paragraph 4 and 5 being mostly irrelevant because your life doesn't depend on exertion.

The key being healing can't restore them. You spend the spell slots, then spend the Temp exertion, arguably first. The only way to restore the Temp beyond the Max (2*PB) is spending more spell slots. Spending Hit Die would not restore beyond that Max (2*PB).