Warlock, Shadow Walk and Stealth

[clearstream]

And, as DracoSuave hints at, this whole combo, not to mention normal Stealth, isn't even really that powerful.

Hi Buzz. How powerful stealth is depends a lot on how you rule it, and there are conflicting rulings.

Some take the FAQ to mean Stealth = Invisibility. That makes it somewhere near a level 6 daily, only at-will. That seems over the top to me. At the polar extreme, others see it as good for one or no more than two CA opportunities in combat. For both, even for Warlocks, with the investment of 1-2 feats most monsters have little chance of beating stealth.

I have to guess you're running it closer to the latter end, and I certainly agree that many lose sight of the fact it doesn't matter too much what happens inside an action in the vast majority of cases.

-vk

 

[robsenworldaccount]

This entire post is null!

Stealth: "you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check" phb pg 188

Shadow walk: "On your turn, if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn" phb pg 131

Since the stealth check requires you to have concealment before attempting the check, you would to move first, but a stealth check is part of an action, not an action itself.

So to stealth, he must follower the rules eveyone else does he must hide, cannot break cover for 15ft and can the move stealthed to X location.

 

[Kordeth]

This entire post is null!

Stealth: "you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check" phb pg 188

Shadow walk: "On your turn, if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn" phb pg 131

Since the stealth check requires you to have concealment before attempting the check, you would to move first, but a stealth check is part of an action, not an action itself.

So to stealth, he must follower the rules eveyone else does he must hide, cannot break cover for 15ft and can the move stealthed to X location.

Actually, there are a few ways the warlock can pull this trick:

- He can move three squares with a move action, gain concealment, and then use his standard action to move stealthily. Then on his next turn he can attack, then move and hide (remember, you gain concealment till the end of your next turn). Attacking breaks his Stealth, but he still has concealment.

- If he's fey pact, he can kill a cursed enemy and teleport three squares, then move stealthily.

- He can attack, move three squares, then spend an action point to move stealthily.

- He can take advantage of an ally's power that grants a move action.

 

[buzz]

The CS reply I linked to above states explicitly that the warlock does not gain the effect of Shadow Walk mid-move. He gains it after the move has been completed. There is no Stealth check that can be made mid-move, as the Concealment from Shadow Walk does not exist yet.

Since this agrees with what I think is the most obvious reading of the ability, I'm happy to go with CS on this one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The CS reply I linked to above states explicitly that the warlock does not gain the effect of Shadow Walk mid-move. He gains it after the move has been completed. There is no Stealth check that can be made mid-move, as the Concealment from Shadow Walk does not exist yet.

Since this agrees with what I think is the most obvious reading of the ability, I'm happy to go with CS on this one.

So if the Warlock charges - moves 4 squares and then makes a basic melee attack - does he have concealment when the move is finished, but before the charge action is finished? That is, does he have concealment while he is making his attack?

-Hyp.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, the whole stealth thing is going to be a hotbed till mike or someone issues a step-by-step.

 

[clearstream]

The CS reply I linked to above states explicitly that the warlock does not gain the effect of Shadow Walk mid-move. He gains it after the move has been completed. There is no Stealth check that can be made mid-move, as the Concealment from Shadow Walk does not exist yet.

Since this agrees with what I think is the most obvious reading of the ability, I'm happy to go with CS on this one.

Buzz, you posted

CS: As part of your move action into another area that offers cover/concealment, you can make a stealth check.


and

CS: You would gain concealment after moving.

I'm not sure this produces a definitive ruling. After moving 3-squares is still after moving. Can you post back and ask if they meant 'after completion of the move action'?


-vk

 

[Giryan]

I think that coming into effect mid move is a completely reasonable reading of the rules.
It is the same way that the dragonshield's shift works, mid-move there is a condition that occurs, when that condition occurs the effect takes place, the move can continue afterwards.

 

[buzz]

I'm not sure this produces a definitive ruling. After moving 3-squares is still after moving. Can you post back and ask if they meant 'after completion of the move action'?

Based on the phrasing of my question, the answer says that the action needs to be completed first. The Shadow Walk does not happen mid-movement.

 

[buzz]

It is the same way that the dragonshield's shift works, mid-move there is a condition that occurs, when that condition occurs the effect takes place, the move can continue afterwards.

Dragonshoeld Tactics is specifically called out as an Immediate Reaction, and the rules for Reactions on p.268 specifically call out that movement is the only kind of action that does not have to be completed before the Interrupt occurs. And this is all in reaction to another creature's action.

I don't see any parallel between this and Shadow Walk. Shadow Walk reads the same as any other ability or feat that assumes the "trigger" happens before the beneficial effect. I.e., what precedent exists in the rest of the ruleset absolutely supports CS's response.