Warlock, Shadow Walk and Stealth

[Benly]

Of course, the question of when the warlock gains concealment is moot unless he's been prevented from making his movements for a round or unless the combat starts with him having been sitting in place when he's attacked - if he walks into a room when the fight starts, he likely moved at least three squares in the previous round and therefore has concealment until the end of his next (first) turn.

 

[clearstream]

You are applying the general opposed roll rule over the specific rule for the perception skill. But specific overrules general. An active perception check takes an action.

PHB178 Opposed Checks. Both characters roll. Stealth is given as the example. There is no wording in RAW that says you need to use an action to make an opposing check. For example, Bluff is opposed by Insight. The Insight user doesn't spend an action to make their opposing check.

-vk

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't see what the problem people have with Warlocks trying to use their sup-par stealth. (Yes, their stealth is subpar. Even -with- the skill they just break even at best, unless they multi into rogue to take specific utility powers.)

After all, this IS a class that can get 'turn invisible to one monster' as an -at-will- attack.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I don't like the notion of having to begin a turn concealed in order to hide. Seems to me if there are bushes 2 squares away and you move 6 squares, diving into the bushes and hiding is appropriate, realistic and not broken (with -5 for moving too quickly (over 2 squares) to be very quiet). I will allow a stealth roll as long as your move takes you into a hideable spot; you don't need to start in one.

 

[On Puget Sound]

As I point out above, I don't agree with this reading. The move is the prereq; the Shadow Walk doesn't pop into existence mid-move.

Actually I think it does.

Shadow Walk
On your turn, if you move at least 3 squares away from
where you started your turn, you gain concealment
until the end of your next turn.

The turn on which you gain concealment is the turn in which you move three squares. There is no room in the definition for a 1-turn delay between the moving and the concealment. And since the concealment cannot occur until you have created it by moving 3 squares, it must happen either at the 3rd square of movement (in mid-move), or at the end of the move action in which you moved 3 or more squares. In either case, a stealth check at the end (as part of the move action) would seem to be in perfect order.

 

[the_redbeard]

Actually I think it does.



The turn on which you gain concealment is the turn in which you move three squares. There is no room in the definition for a 1-turn delay between the moving and the concealment. And since the concealment cannot occur until you have created it by moving 3 squares, it must happen either at the 3rd square of movement (in mid-move), or at the end of the move action in which you moved 3 or more squares. In either case, a stealth check at the end (as part of the move action) would seem to be in perfect order.

Seattle person here agreeing with you - mostly.

I think there are instances when a stealth check during movement should be allowed. VK (or someone else) posed the example of a stealther not beginning in concealment, moving through concealment and ending out of concealment.
So - possible to stealth while moving through the concealment squares? If stealth is part of an action, then yes.

RAW, it seems to me that Shadow Walk's concealment occurs as soon as the 3rd square is entered.
The timing is important because it will determine if the warlock can stealth as part of her movment (after the 3rd square) or whether she will need to take another action to use stealth to hide.
I think she can use any movement after the 3rd square to hide, but I don't expect that to be the universal interpretation.

If I was only worried about the table I run, I wouldn't have to split hairs with everyone here But if I want to play Living Forgotten Realms, I'm gonna have to care what the consensus opinion is - or at least what the RPGA opinion will be.


That reading of the ability leaves open the possibility of moving 3 squares, gaining concealment, and moving back.

 

[the_redbeard]

Whoops - double posting to overcome board slowness makes me look silly. Where's the delete button?

 

[DracoSuave]

A Warlock can have concealment any time upon getting that third square of distance (regardless of whether it's movement or teleportation). Stealthing is not an action, it's a -part- of other actions, so as soon as you establish you're three or more away, you can start with the opposed rolls for stealthiness. That said, once they do it -once-, so long as they do so every round, they'll never leave concealment.

Something to remember tho, lots of monsters have bonuses to perception that are not tiny in comparison to the Warlock. Secondly, even if the Warlock is trained (+5 to the roll) their movement will negate that (-5 to stealth when moving more than 2 squares), almost as if they set the Shadow Walk/movement penalty threshholds in consideration of each other. In essence, if you're spending the feat to use this effectively, you're just rolling straight Dex rolls against their possibly trained perception rolls, which gives you on average a 50/50 chance none of them have to make a roll at all.

It's effective, just not super-effective.

 

[buzz]

The turn on which you gain concealment is the turn in which you move three squares. There is no room in the definition for a 1-turn delay between the moving and the concealment. And since the concealment cannot occur until you have created it by moving 3 squares, it must happen either at the 3rd square of movement (in mid-move), or at the end of the move action in which you moved 3 or more squares. In either case, a stealth check at the end (as part of the move action) would seem to be in perfect order.

As was written above, I think the wording would have been different if the effect sprang up mid-move. As written, it's formatted like any other if...then ability, i.e., the prereq has to happen first, in entirety, for the effect to happen.

Honestly, though, I think it's kinda moot if we focus on how it might happen in an actual game. Since combat actions happen sequentially, and not in parallel, nothing else is happening when the warlock is making their 3+ square move. Whether the concealment happens mid-move or afterwards really only make s a difference in corner-cases like the OP.

I mean, since Stealth is part of an action, whether the warlock uses Stealth as part of the move or as part of whatever they do after the move is going to be largely irrelevant in play. E.g., in OP, the example warlock still has a Minor action left over. SO whether you rule mid-move or not, that warlock is likely going to get to make a Stealth check before his turn is over.

And, as DracoSuave hints at, this whole combo, not to mention normal Stealth, isn't even really that powerful.

 

[buzz]

FYI, I posed some of these questions to WotC, and posted their responses.