Warlock, Shadow Walk and Stealth

[buzz]

So if the Warlock charges - moves 4 squares and then makes a basic melee attack - does he have concealment when the move is finished, but before the charge action is finished? That is, does he have concealment while he is making his attack?

If the only movement the warlock makes on their turn is the movement that's a free part of the charge, I'd say no. Since the Shadow Walk doesn't happen mid-move, the warlock does not have the Concealment when they make their charge attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Since the Shadow Walk doesn't happen mid-move, the warlock does not have the Concealment when they make their charge attack.

It isn't happening mid-move. The movement is finished before the attack occurs.

-Hyp.

 

[buzz]

It isn't happening mid-move. The movement is finished before the attack occurs.

It's a single action that combines movement with a melee basic attack (or bull rush). Based on my reading and what CS said, I'd treat it the same; the action needs to be completed first.

Granted, it's maybe enough of a corner-case (and not really overpowered enough) to allow the Shadow Walk to happen just before the attack, but that strikes me as bogus.

Not to mention, why is a warlock charging into melee?

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's a single action that combines movement with a melee basic attack (or bull rush). Based on my reading and what CS said, I'd treat it the same; the action needs to be completed first.

Based on what CS said?

CS said "You would gain concealment after moving". The attack occurs "after moving".

-Hyp.

 

[Giryan]

Dragonshoeld Tactics is specifically called out as an Immediate Reaction, and the rules for Reactions on p.268 specifically call out that movement is the only kind of action that does not have to be completed before the Interrupt occurs. And this is all in reaction to another creature's action.

I don't see any parallel between this and Shadow Walk. Shadow Walk reads the same as any other ability or feat that assumes the "trigger" happens before the beneficial effect. I.e., what precedent exists in the rest of the ruleset absolutely supports CS's response.

I probably should have been clearer, I was referring to Dragonshield tactics working as it does because movement is considered a series of single square steps, rather than one whole step(as explained by Mike Mearls somewhere or another); which enables a character to move up to the kobold, have it shift away, and then recommence movement to move up to the kobold again, or move away or anything really.
Thus making clear that things do happen in the middle of movement. There's nothing in RAW that says that the concealment doesn't come into effect when its condition is true. That's just that individual CSR's interpretation.

This can't work using the same trigger mechanic as the Dragonshield tactics because it's occurring in the player's turn, but if that specific issue is ignored then it would occur as I suggested.

 

[buzz]

Based on what CS said?

CS said "You would gain concealment after moving". The attack occurs "after moving".

Like I said, I find it bogus, but it's a corner case that could have merit. I'd want to ask CS about this specifically.

 

[buzz]

I probably should have been clearer, I was referring to Dragonshield tactics working as it does because movement is considered a series of single square steps, rather than one whole step(as explained by Mike Mearls somewhere or another); which enables a character to move up to the kobold, have it shift away, and then recommence movement to move up to the kobold again, or move away or anything really.
Thus making clear that things do happen in the middle of movement. There's nothing in RAW that says that the concealment doesn't come into effect when its condition is true. That's just that individual CSR's interpretation.

Well, since CS confirmed what was already my reading, I'm in agreement with their take. I don't think your comparison is apt. C'est la vie.

 

[jdpacheco]

My take (after much consideration):

Stealth is something that you perform an action doing, not a condition
So: If you want to attack from stealth, check to see if you meet the conditions, make the check, then attack. If you want to move while "stealthed", check to see if you meet the conditions, make the check, then attack.

The concealment from Shadow Walk happens after the move that puts you at least three squares from your starting position. Using that concealment, you can then make an attack using Stealth, or you can move again if you don't want people to know where you are.

Why the attack itself is "stealthed": You have concealment, so your opponent cannot clearly see what you're doing. It's like keeping a gun hidden under your coat. Also think of the "Stealth using distraction" as the old "look over there", or when you psyche someone out by pretending you're going to throw the ball at the someone else. It's only granting combat advantage, which basically means that they're not reacting correctly because they can't fully judge your intent. The attack itself blows any Stealth you have.

You still keep all the advantages of having concealment, and can even use "Stealth" as normal on the next round (Or even: Stealth Attack, then Stealth Move at least 3 squares to keep it going).

Everything I've said should be well within RAW, and seems to be RAI, and doesn't "nerf" any ability (and doesn't get anything out of hand, either).