Warlocks and Metamagic: A Better Way

[jedavis]

The issue of Warlocks using metamagic on Eldritch Blast came up in my group recently, and we thought about looking into the WotC clarifications on it... and then decided to manage it much more simply. Basically, it works like this:

You may apply one or more metamagic feats that you know to an Eldritch Blast. If you do so, the damage is decreased by 1d6 per spell level added by metamagic, and the save DC is likewise decreased by 1 per level of metamagic added.

We also decided that since you're taking a damage hit, it's probably OK to let it stay a standard action. However, quicken spell didn't come up, so we're not sure how that'll go down...

So... any thoughts?

 

[Starbuck_II]

The issue of Warlocks using metamagic on Eldritch Blast came up in my group recently, and we thought about looking into the WotC clarifications on it... and then decided to manage it much more simply. Basically, it works like this:

You may apply one or more metamagic feats that you know to an Eldritch Blast. If you do so, the damage is decreased by 1d6 per spell level added by metamagic, and the save DC is likewise decreased by 1 per level of metamagic added.

We also decided that since you're taking a damage hit, it's probably OK to let it stay a standard action. However, quicken spell didn't come up, so we're not sure how that'll go down...

So... any thoughts?

Wait, so now Warlocks can use Metamagic spell-like ability feats and normal metamagic?

 

[jedavis]

We ditched the metamagic SLA feats in favor of standard metamagic feats. I guess if someone wanted to do something similar to the SLA feats (n times per day and no penalties for using), they could take the Sudden Metamagic feats (though I don't remember how many times per day those are useable; the SLA feats are 3, but I don't remember if the Suddens are 3 or 1).

 

[Risek]

Ummm....

Have you taken a gander at the Complete Arcane errata? They fixed it, you can now use SLA feats (Unfortunately you're limited to 3/day).
However, ask your DM if you can take Supernatural Transformation for eldritch blast, then you can take the meta-supernatural ability feats from ToM, which only work 1/day each, but you just take them multiple times (plus there's no more worrying about SR).

 

[jedavis]

Yeah, that was what we were trying to replace. As we see it, the point of the warlock is that he can keep blasting (and using permutations of modifications to blasting) all day. As the SLA feats don't allow that continual stream of maximally-powerful blasts, we were unsatisfied with them. Additionally, there was some confusion early on (not sure if the errata fixed this or not) regarding the effective level of EB for purposes of the SLA feats.

However, the original intent of this thread wasn't to argue whether or not the SLA feats were good, bad, confusing, or otherwise. It was to ask about the balance of the alternative proposed. I don't care how the rules as written state it can be done; I'm curious if the method I propose is reasonable.

(Plus, I don't have ToM)

 

[Runestar]

Why don't you just run some numbers up before and after applying metamagic feats?

For example, in the case of empower spell, where x = no.of damage die.

Let 3.5x = 1.5*3.5(x-2))
3.5x = 5.25x - 10.5
1.75x = 10.5, x = 6

Note: 3.5 represents the average damage for each die (ie: average of 1d6 = 3.5).

So for empower spell, its pointless prior to warlock11. At lv11, you are indifferent for damage, since 6d6 is mathematically the same as 1.5*4d6 (actually worse off, because of the save dc penalty). At lv14+, it gets better. But even then, the damage increase is very minimal (at lv20, 9d6 averages 31.5, 1.5*7d6 = 36.75), barely worth the effort.

As for maximize.

Let 3.5x * 6(x-3)
3.5x = 6x - 18
18 = 2.5x, x = 7.2, round up to 8. So maximize is really only worth it at lv17+ (assuming you are willing to stomach the -3DC penalty). But there is no point using it over empower spell (at lv20, 6d6max gives you just 36 damage, as opposed to empower's 36.75.

Repeat for twin and any other metamagic feats you want to use, but my guess is that the outcome will be the same - they will suck at lower lvs up to a certain point, and then become a free (albeit minor) boost thereafter.

My conclusion is that it would be a very bad idea, since it cannot be uniformly useful at all lvs, and the benefit is way too minor to warrant the expenditure of a feat (even if you can stomach the dc decrease).

 

[jedavis]

Yeah, we did run the mathematical analysis on the feat the party warlock wanted (Blistering Spell, PHBII, for application to Brimstone Blasts), and found that it broke even on damage as soon as Brimstone Blast is available. At later levels, it could be quite profitable (consider, for example, 20th level, using a Brimstone Blast with Blistering Spell: 8d6+16 vs 9d6. I think that's worth a -1 save DC (of course, by 20th level, Brimstone Blast is hardly optimal as a special effect, but that's not the point. Damage is the point.).) Retributive Spell is another interesting option, even from low levels. Sure, most metamagic won't be as good for Warlocks as it is for Wizards on a per spell-basis... but then again, a Warlock can use it all day long. That extra 5 points per hit from Empower at 20th (or 12 per hit with Blistering) adds up. Also, we've found save DCs for Warlocks to be fairly secondary compared to damage; at high levels, Vitriolic Blast tends to be the favorite Essence due simply to the fact that it ignores SR. However, if you're concerned by underpowering, remove the save DC penalty.

Also, your point of inconsistency across level applies equally to the base metamagic system for standard casters. Quicken Spell is absolutely unusable at first level, not worthwhile even when it is usable at 7th or 8th, and quite good at high levels. For Warlocks, Quicken is quite tenable at 9th level (or 7th with a Chasuble); a free swift action blast, even for only 1d6, is still a free swift action blast.

The application of metamagic to warlocks does become a mathematical optimization exercise (something which my group is not terribly opposed to)... one could argue the same for stanard metamagic, though that is much harder to optimize since the number of available spells is so much larger.

 

[Runestar]

Sure, most metamagic won't be as good for Warlocks as it is for Wizards on a per spell-basis... but then again, a Warlock can use it all day long.

You are however, not going to have all day long to slowly snipe away at your enemies and wear them away. So priority should still be on wiping them out ASAP, and less so on your endurance.

That said, if you go warlock/hellfire warlock + legacy champion/bloodline madness (to cheese out hellfire blast) and splash 1 lv of binder for naberious, you can manage a 25-27d6 EB (before stacking on other invocations). This should make empower/twin more worth it. And quicken actually becomes useful.

 

[jedavis]

That said, if you go warlock/hellfire warlock + legacy champion/bloodline madness (to cheese out hellfire blast) and splash 1 lv of binder for naberious

Dude... I have no idea where any of that stuff is from.... I guess I'm behind the times.

You are however, not going to have all day long to slowly snipe away at your enemies and wear them away. So priority should still be on wiping them out ASAP, and less so on your endurance.

Sort of. Debilitating effects do best serve the purpose of quickly incapacitating the enemy, and therefore don't play well with metamagic as proposed due to the DC penalty (which, upon further discussion, my group is unsure about. We might eliminate it). But then again, when you compare a warlock's role with a wizard's, the warlock's job is to zap people on a very regular basis, rather than blow people up once per day. For a metamagic feat to be worth the feat for a wizard, he needs to be able to make productive use of it occasionally, whereas for a warlock, a +2 average damage per hit is better than Ranged Spell Specialization... that was more of my point. Killing stuff fast is good, but my group tend to go about it by damage rather than by debuff (except for my lone True Sorcerer... specializes in Afflict (curses) and Holding).