Warlocks being broken?

[Theroc]

Alright, in an entirely different campaign than the one I'm asking earlier about werewolf druids, I am playing in a campaign with a houseruled monk variant.

The DM is very flexible and is willing to work to make concepts viable that aren't exactly RAW.

Well, I'd been hoping to take a swing at the Dragon Disciple PrC for my monk-variant, but was hoping to tweak things to so that a Warlock could qualify.

To this end, I submitted the Warlock Class to him (via Crystalkeep) for approval.

He feels it's VERY broken, and is giving me a chance to explain why it is not and why he should allow it.

The discussion so far:

I have just gone over the warlock class at Crystal Keep and as a DM my reaction of course is...

WHAT THE...?

So are there DM's out there allowing people to take a character with a ranged Touch attack that allows no save or SR, is UNLIMITED? in uses, does untyped damage so no resistance, can't be countered since it's not a spell, does a little less damage then a fireball but you don't get a save for 1/2 or get to use evasion, can detect magic at will?? why??
will have DR 1/ cold iron 4 lvls before a Barbarian, fast healing and energy resistance at higher lvls when most needed

I need to know the first person who thought up this class...
Wish I could have been there when he said "yeah this is just as balanced as playing a wizard or sorcerer"

Will it should go without saying I don't care for Warlock but I am know to be brought around better give some good reasons for allowing this in Theroc

I'm all ears eyes.

My reply-

1. Eldritch Blasts All allow SR, EXCEPT the Greater Invocation "Vitriolic Blast" Which changes the Eldritch blasts damage from "Untyped" to "Acid"
2. Yes, it's unlimited, because a Warlock doesn't have the flexibility to use other spells.
3. Barbarians have d12 Hit dice. Warlocks have D6 hit dice. Barbarians DR cannot be pentrated.
4. All Warlock invocations allow SR, except those that do not effect opposing monsters (As I recall)
5. Warlock's power comes in stamina, not sheer pwnage power. Yes, they can fire Eldritch Blasts all day. A Wizard can hit more opponents and do about the same damage to a group of opponents in a single encounter. Warlock's just don't have the same concerns about resource management, Wizard/Sorcerers still have the big guns.
6. Eldritch Blast grows slower than a Rogue's Sneak Attacks.

Do these reasons help at all?

Can anyone come up with any additional points to help convince my DM that a Warlock isn't as broken as it has struck him?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You basically covered it. You could add as to the fast healing that lesser vigor is a level 1 spell and also gives fast healing...

Really, you could ask him "in your experience when running games, how often do the casters run out of spells at level 1? At level 6? At level 12?" Warlocks might be better than casters at level 1, when casters just really suck and can't do more than 3 or so good spells. But they're still not as good as a fighter. Less hp and AC, lower BAB, and only d6 damage, instead of the fighter's d8 or 2d6 (longsword/greatsword). Sure, they hit touch AC, but they also have lower BAB, so it's not a huge advantage.

As levels rise, spellcasters can simply do d6/CL damage every round of every combat if they want, often to an area. They also have MANY more options for things to do with their spells.

Above all that, if your DM allows Reserve feats, I really don't get what he's smoking. Reserve feats basically turn any caster into a warlock for just 1 measly feat and a spell slot.

 

[Theroc]

You basically covered it. You could add as to the fast healing that lesser vigor is a level 1 spell and also gives fast healing...

Above all that, if your DM allows Reserve feats, I really don't get what he's smoking. Reserve feats basically turn any caster into a warlock for just 1 measly feat and a spell slot.

I'll keep the Vigor in mind(as you can slot Vigor multiple times.) Fiendish Resilience is a 1/day, isn't it?

As for Reserve feats, he actually is running a "PHB+DMG, but run anything outside that you'd like past me, and I'll review it" game.

I don't believe Reserve Feats have come up yet... since we're only level 1 at the moment, and I was asking for several levels from now.

 

[Hawken]

Reserve feats are a good way to turn someone into a warlock, but yeah, upon first glance warlocks do look bad-ass--and like any class they have that potential--but they do have their weaknesses too.

Yeah, they do get the whole ranged (or melee with the right invocation) touch attack, but they advance at average BAB. They have rogue hit dice, but poor skill points. Their invocations are more useful than powerful and while unlimited eldritch blasts do seem cool. When you're at 10th level shooting a 5d6 blast at ONE target and the wizard/sorcerer in the group is mowing down everyone in a 40' diameter with a 10d6 fireball, you don't look all that impressive.

Also 5d6 tends to average out to around 18hp. Yeah, not much defense against that, but the bigger, tougher monsters are going to just get pissed off at that and come over and pulverize the warlock--think kinda like in a 1st person shooter game and you're getting pinged to death by some snot-nosed sniper, that's kind of how warlocks are. And unlike the rogue sneak attack, that is just a straight 5d6, not 5d6 plus weapon damage and modifiers. There are no modifiers to eldritch blast damage except for other invocations.

They get very few invocations and can only swap out ones they don't want every few levels. I've made the comment before, they're basically like living laser guns. You can tweak them out a little, make one a little different from the next, but there's not much variation beyond that.

 

[Magesmiley]

A couple of other points:

1. He needs to compare the damage output of a sorcerer/wizard of comparable level per round. A warlock is actually an inferior choice to a wizard who wants to throw a few big hitters quickly. A 5th-level warlock can't match the effectiveness of a fireball thrown by a 5th-level wizard in a single round. Even a 3rd-level wizard gets scorching ray for 4d6 to the warlock's 2d6 at the same level. The wizard will run out of spells sooner, but it doesn't matter if the enemy is already dead.
2. The warlock seriously lacks the variety of a sorcerer in abilities he can use, to say nothing of the wizard.
3. From what I've seen in my games (where I've had several warlocks at various times), the warlock plays more as an archer type with a couple of other powers rather than a full-fledged spell-slinger.

 

[Rhun]

3. From what I've seen in my games (where I've had several warlocks at various times), the warlock plays more as an archer type with a couple of other powers rather than a full-fledged spell-slinger.

This is absolutely true. A warlock plays very similar to a well-built archer. While the warlock is fairly powerful at low levels, at higher levels they can easily be outdone by many other classes.

 

[Thanee]

There are some invocations, that might be a bit of a headache, since the Warlock can use them over and over again (i.e. Flee the Scene).

But overall, the Warlock is absolutely fine.

Your DM probably also thinks Mystic Theurges are totally overpowered, since they are like two characters in one.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Warlock is pretty much like an arcane Fighter or Ranger in terms of balance and power curve. He provides steady firepower but he lacks the ability to increase his firepower significantly. He lacks the typical property of 3E spellcasters that can provide a lot of firepower when needed and can do little when preserving their resources.

A Warlock cannot replace a Wizard or Sorcerer for these reasons. But he can replace a Ranger or a Fighter focusing on archery.
I don't know if he has a higher damage output then the previous. I tend to think not - while he gets steadily more d6 to go with his damage, he doesn't get ability bonuses or enhancement bonuses to damage, and he generally doesn't get multiple attacks per round either, especially not multiple attacks at the same target. So while he might be able to deal a little more damage per round, the damage is not focused on one target, meaning that his enemies still remain a threat for a longer time.

 

[Shin Okada]

In my experience, Warlock is one of the most well-balanced non-PHB standard class.

As already pointed out, a Warlock is more like an alternative archer than to be an alternative mage, especially at lower level.

Warlock is not a weak class either. Especially when you choose appropriate spell-like ability related feats (found in MM and complete arcane) and (at 12th+ level) some nice magic item creation feats. But, at higher level, a warlock is still not a nuker. They are more like all-rounder.

Also note that 3.5e wizards can make or buy expendable magic items such as scrolls and wands. This is usually enough to make them not "run out of ammo". If the campaign does not give enough down time to make items nor chance to buy magic items, they may have trouble. But that is another story and should be compensated in some way.

 

[irdeggman]

Your Dm misread the Warlock.

he said

So are there DM's out there allowing people to take a character with a ranged Touch attack that allows no save or SR, is UNLIMITED

SR specifically applies.

Also using a spell-like ability (the warlock's evocations, including eldridge blast) is a standard action - so he can only do it once per round.

Also it is limited in range (60 ft, not a range increment a range maximum - like a spell) unless he burns one of invocation choices on eldrtich spear which increases the range to 120 ft.

Basically a warlock is a pretty cool class and while at fitst glance it appears very powerful because of the all day long blasting ability, most DMs who spend time looking at the class determine that it is not overpowered at all.

In general a warlock is a 1 trick pony for offensive ability. It can be a fine "stealthy" character if the right choices for invocations are taken.

Using a spell-like ability generates an AoO and unless using Eldrich Glaive from (Dragon Magic I believe) the warlock does not threaten.

Depending on how you interpret the rules an AoO could be generated for using a spell-like ability and for using a ranged attack.

A warlock can not keep up with a fighter for damage output. The warlock does not get iterative attacks so all of his damage is done to one opponent (usually, there are a few area or multiple target invocations) while a fighter (who can likewise deal damage all day long) can make iterative attacks (or a raging barbarian with power attack and dreat axe).