Warlocks being broken?

[Asha'man]

I.M.E (I run a campaign featuring a lot of arcane spellcasting villains, both wizards, sorcerers and warlocks) having their abilities at will is worth more than you give it credit for. It's not so much about running out, as about having everything you can do at your fingertips at all times. I agree wholeheartedly that they're not as destructive as a wizard or sorcerer, but on the other hand they're less fragile. And they're not supposed to replace casters anyway, they're more a sort of inverted bard. (Versatile, but focused on messing with enemies rather than buffing allies.)

As for challenge, I'll say it again: CR is descriptive. If a 5th level warlock can't give a 5th level party a reasonable fight (and I agree, most likely he can't) then he's not CR 5. That's what CR *means*.

If you don't cotton to that, however, there are a few tricks you can pull to up damage output:
- Quicken Spell-like ability (available at CL 10, so probably level 9, 12 at the latest) a must-have feat for warlocks who want to deal damage
- Mortalbane (from BoVD), available at level 1, requires evil, but we're talking about villains here, anyway (and ones with easily fiendish fluff, at that)
- Empower Spell-like ability (available at level 6) not that impressive on its own, but great synergy with Mortalbane.

And while these are limited in uses per day, by your own admission, that's not so important for an NPC, right?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If a player tried that in a game I ran, they'd get a really heavy book thrown at them.

Well, that or use a Warlock against him with the Dispel Magic invocation that deals damage to the target for each spell dispelled. I think your heavy book throwing might be nicer, though.

 

[irdeggman]

They are bad from a challenge POV, not flavour, IMO. Their damage scales very slowly, while their invocations are flat out inferior to spells from a caster of equivalent level, so you would be hard pressed to have it pose a challenge to a party. At-will abilities aren't really worth that much to an npc who is unlikely to last more than one encounter.

Well there is always their UMD "Deceive Item" ability - at 4th level they can take 10 (even when distracted or threatened) on UMD checks. Charisma is also their prime ability so it can add a new dimension very rapidly - especially when it comes to "buffs" and healing.

 

[Shin Okada]

It is rather off-topic but,

Well, single NPC, of any class, rarely worth their CR by it self. Class abilities are meant to shine when a character is in a balanced party.

So if you want to use a warlock as a villain, give him minions who lock up melee combatants and/or annoy PC spellcasters.

Now, even a L5 Warlock, who flies over the battlefield and just shooting down one Brimstone Blast per round, could be a really serious threat, when he is backed up by armor-clad Hobgoblin Warrior minions.

At higher level, Empower Spell-Like Ability, Maximize Spell-Like Ability & Quicken Spell-Like Ability can be combined to let a warlock inflict good amount of damages for a round or two. Unlike metamagic feats, all of those 3 can be easily applied simultaneously. Do not forget to give him Greater Chasuble of Fell Power.

Chained Binding Blast or Chained Utterdark Blast can be really strong, too.

Also, don't underestimate the Chilling Tentacles invocation.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

As far as using magic items go, yes, that's definitely an option. But a rogue can do that, too. And add sneak attack damage. And whatever scroll you're using, the wizard of your level can use higher level spells with much higher DCs anyway, so I don't buy that as a way to make an NPC Warlock more dangerous in a fight. Class levels are never worth their weight in CR, for sure. But warlock levels especially don't pan out for a main villain to fight the party. Warlocks can work well as lower level minions, using fell flight or the spiderclimb invocation to stay away from the melee attackers and slowly but surely plinking away the party's hp if they ignore them. I made a fey race up to use as the main NPC's helpers in my gestalt game that had some inherent warlock abilities, much like a race that comes with sorcerer spellcasting, they did a pretty good job.

[sblock]Notes: They were made to fight an evil party, they could just as easily be Chaotic Neutral. They benefitted from some houserules (like a +4 per size smaller than medium rule for escape artist), as well as things unique to the high powered campaign: high point buy, +1 bonus feat (just get rid of split spell-like ability, which I made up anyway). They might be higher CR, this was a gestalt game. The speed 50 in () was because it was assumed they'd have Longstrider up before combat.

Eldritch Spirit
Size/Type: Small Fey
Hit Dice: 6d6+12 (48 hp) *I gave NPCs max hp; the standard would be 33 (half HD)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 (50) ft. (4 squares), fly 40 (50) ft. (good)
Armor Class: 25 (+5 Dex, +2 natural +3 armor +1 shield +4 deflection), touch 19, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+0
Full Attack: Eldritch Blast +9 ranged touch (3d6; 60 ft) or mstrwk dagger +6 melee (1d3+1/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eldritch Blast, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Invocations, damage reduction 5/cold iron, Deceive Item, Energy Resistance 5 (all 5 energy types), Deflection, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +8
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 18
Skills: Bluff +13, Concentration +11, Diplomacy +12, Escape Artist +14 (18), Listen +10, Sense Motive +12, Spot +10, Tumble +14, UMD +13
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast), Precise Shot, Split Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard (mostly wands and scrolls)
Alignment: Always chaotic good

Spell-like Abilities:
At-will -- Detect Magic; 3/day -- Color Spray, Faerie Fire; 1/day -- Cure Moderate Wounds. CL 6th.

Invocations: All Eldritch Spirits know the Fell Flight invocation (included in stats block) as well as four other lesser invocations. CL 6th. Typical invocations:
Sickening Blast (level 2; fort DC 18 or become sickened for 1 min.)
Frightful Blast (level 2; will DC 18 or become shaken for 1 min.)
Eldritch Spear (level 2; EB range becomes 250 ft)
Dark One's Own Luck (+4 to one save type)
Devil's Sight (See 30 ft in normal and magical darkness)
Entropic Warding (ranged attacks miss 20%, leave no trail)
See the Unseen (See Invisible, Darkvision 60 ft)
Summon Swarm (range 40 ft; as spell; duration: concentration)
Voice of Madness (level 2; range 40 ft; will DC 16 or confused for 4 rounds)

Deflection: Eldritch Spirits add their charisma modifiers as a deflection bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor.

Deceive Item: Can always take 10 on UMD checks

Scrolls often carried: Magic Missile (CL 3); Invisibility, Whirling Blade, Unluck, Entangle, Blessed Aim
Wands often carried: Ray of Clumsiness, Longstrider
Eternal Wands often carried: Benign Transposition, Grease (CL 3)
[/sblock]

In my case, I had 2-3 (I forget) of them backing up a Bralani Eladrin.


Oh, and as for the 100 Fell Flights...even more fun: Use Reciprocal Gyre on the Warlock. Instant Death!

 

[irdeggman]

As far as using magic items go, yes, that's definitely an option. But a rogue can do that, too.

A rogue can't take 10 with UMD and a warlock can do this even when distracted or threatened.

 

[irdeggman]

It is rather off-topic but,

Well, single NPC, of any class, rarely worth their CR by it self. Class abilities are meant to shine when a character is in a balanced party.

So if you want to use a warlock as a villain, give him minions who lock up melee combatants and/or annoy PC spellcasters.

Now, even a L5 Warlock, who flies over the battlefield and just shooting down one Brimstone Blast per round, could be a really serious threat, when he is backed up by armor-clad Hobgoblin Warrior minions.

At higher level, Empower Spell-Like Ability, Maximize Spell-Like Ability & Quicken Spell-Like Ability can be combined to let a warlock inflict good amount of damages for a round or two. Unlike metamagic feats, all of those 3 can be easily applied simultaneously. Do not forget to give him Greater Chasuble of Fell Power.

Chained Binding Blast or Chained Utterdark Blast can be really strong, too.

Also, don't underestimate the Chilling Tentacles invocation.

Don't forget the range limit for EB - that is a real limiting factor.

The warlock's saving grace here is his DR and the fact that only ranged attacks can hit him while flying and since most arrows are going to have a good chunck of their damage eliminated via the DR. . .

 

[Falling Icicle]

Then you would have to let him know up front that such a move will not be tolerated, since it is legit by the rules. I am pretty sure that is the whole point of having an ability usable at-will, to let you spam it every chance you get.

I doubt that warlock invocations were intended to be at-will so that you can stack them upon yourself hundreds of times and make them effectively undispellable.

 

[Runestar]

I doubt that warlock invocations were intended to be at-will so that you can stack them upon yourself hundreds of times and make them effectively undispellable.

There is little point in fell flight being at-will either when it already lasts 24 hours (unless you expect it to be dispelled often). Early on, few foes have access to dispel magic as a SLA.

Or perhaps the designers felt there was little harm in making it at-will since it lasts for 24 hours anyways.

 

[Theroc]

Or perhaps the designers felt there was little harm in making it at-will since it lasts for 24 hours anyways.

I always assumed it was so the Warlock could somehow try to pull a fast one and use Fell Flight before donning heavy armor, thus mitigating the ASF and having all day flight. Then again, it being at will, he could just try again repeatedly until it worked.

Weird... I hadn't even thought of that.