D&D General Warlocks: Charisma vs Intelligence

[Xeviat]

A bespectacled researcher delves into tomes of arcane knowledge and forbidden lore. They're working to uncover the hidden secrets of the cosmos, secrets that will let them wield magical power of great potency. Some would say their skills are unnatural, and that their magics call up things best left slumbering. But they care not, and continue their research.

Quick, is that a Warlock or a Wizard? Because right now it's clearly a Wizard, and that clarity is something the Devs value. A spellcaster who attained their power through study and research is a Wizard, while a Warlock is one who did it by negotiating a Pact. A Warlock gains strength from who they know, not what they know.

Could I see an alternative version of D&D where Wizards and Warlocks were fused into one class? Absolutely. It'd be something closer to the real world historical conception of necromancers as a learned man who could command the spirits of the dead to perform magical services for them. But we're talking about a D&D where all the classes are shuffled around.

Having Warlocks as a Cha caster keeps their identity clearly differentiated from Wizards. I respect and appreciate that.

See, I feel like warlocks being Charisma blurs the line between sorcerers and warlocks, especially now that we have both GOO/Aberrant and Celestial/Divine Soul. Could just flavor one class as power coming from blood or pact, it's all thematigically linked to magical creatures.

Warlock vs Wizard feels like a strong distinction even if they're both Int. Wizards study magic, but it's normal every day it's only as bad as it's wielder. Warlocks deal with dark pacts and secrets, forbidden secrets mortals weren't meant to be known. Warlocks have that "magic is bad" vibe from some stories and wizards have that "magic is science" vibe from other stories.

But it's definitely an opinion and vibe thing, I can see both.

 

[Xeviat]

a valid point, but i don't think the mechanical eveness is a perspective you should dismiss entirely just because it's mechanical, if the points made from a desire to balance can also be reinforced by points from the fiction angle too then why not make them?

Also it reduces the ubiquitous warlock dips. I'm honestly tired of them unless someone really wants their patron to be part of their story.

 

[Xeviat]

I think all classes that aren’t the four classic ones should need two prime stats. So for Warlock both Int and Cha. But if i have to pick one then Cha.

That's a compelling perspective. Fighter kind of has Str/Dex, though, not just Str.

 

[Xeviat]

2. By spell type, kinda how 4e worked, and attempting to mirror the str/dex split of martials. But this works better if the whole magic system is retuned for this (Int for spells know/prepped, wis helps with slots, cha for spell power) - but you'd need a weird split like "Wisdom is for spall attacks but Cha is for save DCs"

I actually did this in 3E once! Int was for spell attacks and spells known/prepared. Wis was for spell points. Charisma was for spell damage and DCs. Things were on their way towards a classless system.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Also it reduces the ubiquitous warlock dips. I'm honestly tired of them unless someone really wants their patron to be part of their story.

At this point I'm of the opinion that with stuff like this the GM just needs to put their foot down if it it's a problem for them.

 

[Xeviat]

At this point I'm of the opinion that with stuff like this the GM just needs to put their foot down if it it's a problem for them.

I'm a homebrewer and junior designer. My platonic ideal is for the rules to nip problems in the bud and not force the DM to be the bad guy and say no.

Loving this discussion! Thanks everyone.

It is making me think back to my "no primary stat" idea pitch. Make attack+damage+DCs a function of level (you're a 10th level wizard because you're good at magic; being a 10th level wizard means you're good at magic).

Then, feats, subclasses, and other features could use ability scores as prerequisites (like 3Es big feat chains) to differentiate characters. Strong warriors take power attack. Dextrous warriors take Dueling or precise shot, hardy warriors take tough and diehard, smart warriors take combat expertise, charming warriors take inspiring leader...

Something feels great about it (your low int high cha wizard is a bad student but a natural at magic. Maybe they know less spells, but their spells are just as potent), but something also feels homogeneous about it (even though no one starts with below 16 in their primary stat currently, so are we really getting to see the trade off between the 16 Int wizard and the 14 Int wizard?).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There is no other class in 5e which makes sense to have Intelligence as its spellcasting stat.

Warlocks are not using intelligence. They're explicitly not; they bargain for their power. They are exerting their will, whether in concert or contravention with their patron. They, like Sorcerers, are "cheating" to get magic, not by studying it (Wizard/Artificer), not by achieving transcendental understanding of it (Cleric/Druid), but by benefitting from supernatural nepotism. "Do you know who my [sugar]daddy is?"

If you want another spellcaster that should actually use Intelligence...make one. The Warlock has always been Charisma-based for a good reason. Even the 3.5e version was Charisma-based. Don't take away the toys of others. Build something new and worthwhile.

Alternatively, if that's too much work, split the Wizard. I like that option because...well, the Wizard is WAY too many archetypes stuffed into one bag. It has to be every version of every spellcasting tradition from every myth and story ever--Gandalf and Merlin and Yensid and Ged and Harry Potter and, and, and, and. Make multiple Wizard-esque spellcasters that are more focused, and thus more textured and interesting. As it stands, the Wizard's stupidly massive emphasis on its stupidly powerful spell list means the class is essentially empty. The only class feature it gets in 5.0 between level 1 and level six-freaking-teen is Arcane Recovery. Even with 5.5e, from level 1 to 17, your actual class features (since ritual casting is just...part of being a spellcaster now) are: Arcane Recovery, expertise in one Wizard skill you've already trained, and...swapping out one prepared spell per short rest.

 

[Charlaquin]

Fair, but I really really really really love when the grid is filled. When 4E made rangers martial, I was miffed but then curious because I thought maybe they'd be the martial controller. And then they weren't and I forever glared at that missing slot (and my missing dragon eevee).

The eevee grid is actually filled. It’s just that the grid is of types that dealt special damage prior to the physical/special split.

 

[Sulicius]

I don't really mind Charisma, but I would let a player change the primary ability if they agree not to multiclass.

 

[Ashrym]

...well, the Wizard is WAY too many archetypes stuffed into one bag. It has to be every version of every spellcasting tradition from every myth and story ever--Gandalf and Merlin and Yensid and Ged and Harry Potter and, and, and, and. Make multiple Wizard-esque spellcasters that are more focused, and thus more textured and interesting.

I would say that the wizard isn't so much stuffed with archetypes so much as the label is over-used and sometimes out of context.

Much of Gandalf is based on Väinämöinen the bard. Merlin is based on Myrddin Wyllt the bard. Ursula Le Guin based much of Earthsea on Norse Mythology and Ged sang a song of ancient power when he accidentally summoned the Gebbeth. Harry Potter seems a lot less into spell books and more into strength of personality and courage, and seems more like a sorcerer to me.

I think the term "wizard" is overapplied because outside of DnD and the distinction would be something people aren't aware of. Wizards are also just bards who forgot their origins. ;-)

As it stands, the Wizard's stupidly massive emphasis on its stupidly powerful spell list means the class is essentially empty. The only class feature it gets in 5.0 between level 1 and level six-freaking-teen is Arcane Recovery. Even with 5.5e, from level 1 to 17, your actual class features (since ritual casting is just...part of being a spellcaster now) are: Arcane Recovery, expertise in one Wizard skill you've already trained, and...swapping out one prepared spell per short rest.

I don't disagree that the wizard emphasizes spells, but I think this point reaches a bit.

First Level: The wizard is very much defined by the broad spell list and also the spell book. No other class in the game uses this mechanic (unironically Book of Shadows from the Pact of the Tome is the only similar option). Ritual casting is a feature inherent to spell casting, yes, but Ritual Adept is not. This wizard feature allows for wizards to be the only class that doesn't prepare rituals to cast them. Additionally, wizards can swap out a cantrip on a long rest where bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and warlocks (outside of Pact of the Tome) can only swap cantrips when they level up.

That seems like spell casting packs more in to wizards than other classes.

Additional abilities you mentioned are Arcane Recovery, Scholar, and Memorize spell. The abilities that weren't mentioned were the subclass abilities granted at levels 3, 6, 10, and 14; and the feats at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16. Those are part of the class progression too. After level 16 there's Spell Mastery, an Epic Boon, and Signature spells.

By my count it's 16 abilities in the class progression: Spellcasting, Ritual Adept, Arcane Recovery, Scholar, 4 subclass ability levels, 4 feat levels, Memorize Spell, Spell Mastery, Epic Boon, Signature Spells. Just because other classes also get some of those doesn't make them cease to exist on the wizard table. ;-)

When we compare that to the warlocks we see 14 in the class progression: Eldritch Invocations, Pact Magic, Magical Cunning, 4 subclass ability levels, 4 feat levels, Contact Patron, Mystic Arcanum, an Epic Boon, and Eldritch Master. Eldritch Master is just Magical Cunning getting better and Mystic Arcanum is just access to higher level spells like the wizard gets without calling it a class feature; neither of those should count to what we see in the class progression or we should count access to higher level spells for the wizard too. ;-)

Sorcerer (16): Spellcasting, Innate Sorcery, Font of Magic, Metamagic, 4 subclass ability levels, 4 feat levels, Sorcerous Restoration, Sorcery Incarnate, an Epic Boon, and Arcane Apotheosis.

Out of these 3 classes wizards are gaining better spell access; warlocks are gaining invocation access; and sorcerers are gaining metamagic.

Bard (17): Bardic Inspiration, Spellcasting, Expertise, Jack of all Trades, only 3 subclass ability levels, 4 feat levels, Font of Inspiration, Countercharm, Magical Secrets, Superior Inspiration, an Epic Boon, and Words of Creation.

Cleric (16): Spellcasting, Divine Order, Channel Divinity, only 3 subclass ability levels, 4 feat levels, Sear Undead, Blessed Strikes, Divine Intervention, Improved Blessed Strikes, an Epic Boon, Greater Divine Intervention. Also 16 and I don't think Sear Undead, Improved Blessed Strikes, and possibly Greater Divine Intervention should count because they're all just improvements on already existing abilities.

Druid (18): Spellcasting, Druidic, Primal Order, Wild Shape, Wild Companion, 4 subclass ability levels, 4 feat levels, Elemental Fury, Improved Elemental Fury, Beast Spells, an Epic Boon, and Archdruid. Druidic and Wild Companion are just additional spells, and Improved Elemental Fury is just Elemental Fury improvements similar to Improved Blessed Strikes.

The wizard isn't really shy of other major spellcasters in the class progression, and they all have periods where adding spell levels is the only significant increase to the class.