Warlords and Summons

twilsemail

Visitor
Greetings all.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has a clear understanding of the interaction between leaders and summoned creatures. Specifically, if a Warlord uses Commander's Strike and chooses a summoned creature as the ally to attack, what happens next.

The Summoning keyword tells us that the Summoned creature is an ally. It does not tell us what happens when that creature is granted an attack by means outside of summoning magic.

Any help on this would be appreciated.
 

Obryn

Hero
Greetings all.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has a clear understanding of the interaction between leaders and summoned creatures. Specifically, if a Warlord uses Commander's Strike and chooses a summoned creature as the ally to attack, what happens next.

The Summoning keyword tells us that the Summoned creature is an ally. It does not tell us what happens when that creature is granted an attack by means outside of summoning magic.

Any help on this would be appreciated.
They don't have basic attacks, so the Warlord won't be able to do much...

-O
 

Caragaran

Visitor
As far as I am aware summons all use their summoners attack values. They are in effect an extension of the summoner (wizards use int for example and also lose a healing surge when a summon dies) so the summon would make it's standard attack as written in its stat block much the same as any other allied creature would(a P.C. would get a basic attack)

The other question is do Dominated creatures count as an ally. because monster basic attacks can be devasting.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
As far as I am aware summons all use their summoners attack values. They are in effect an extension of the summoner (wizards use int for example and also lose a healing surge when a summon dies) so the summon would make it's standard attack as written in its stat block much the same as any other allied creature would(a P.C. would get a basic attack)

The other question is do Dominated creatures count as an ally. because monster basic attacks can be devasting.
A dominated creature is still an enemy. If you want to make enemy monsters take basic attacks at each other, might I suggest that you play a Feylock? ;)
 

twilsemail

Visitor
For some reason I was under the impression that something somewhere said all creatures had a Basic Attack. The closest I can find is a blurb in the PHB about all characters having basic attacks...

I guess the Warlord isn't granting attacks to the Summon afterall.
 

DracoSuave

Visitor
For some reason I was under the impression that something somewhere said all creatures had a Basic Attack. The closest I can find is a blurb in the PHB about all characters having basic attacks...

I guess the Warlord isn't granting attacks to the Summon afterall.
Summonings are an exception to the rule. There's no indication of what their basic attack is. All players have the melee and ranged basic attack powers, and monsters have one or more of their powers delineated as basic attacks. Summonings have neither. As specific exceptions, they trump the general rule.
 

Mengu

Visitor
There is of course an exception to the exception. Thought Phantom (Star Pact Hexblade summon) has a melee basic attack.
 

BobTheNob

Visitor
Let hypothetically say that there was a summoned creature (let call him "Jack")out there with a basic attack so we can broach the original question.

Most of the time action economy dictates that the summoner must use an action for the summoned creature to act. The concept is that you can bring more creatures onto the field, but you cant bring more action. For the creature to act, someone has to pay a price from their own action budget.

Following that, if we had said that a warlord uses commanders strike to allow Jack to make his basic attack, I as a DM would have absolutely no problem with this what-so-ever, because it is consistent with the concept of the action budget. In this case the warlord has used some of his budget instead of the original summoner, but a price has been paid.

My take, as long as a creature has a basic attack, I would pay it
 
Let hypothetically say that there was a summoned creature (let call him "Jack")out there with a basic attack so we can broach the original question.

Most of the time action economy dictates that the summoner must use an action for the summoned creature to act. The concept is that you can bring more creatures onto the field, but you cant bring more action. For the creature to act, someone has to pay a price from their own action budget.

Following that, if we had said that a warlord uses commanders strike to allow Jack to make his basic attack, I as a DM would have absolutely no problem with this what-so-ever, because it is consistent with the concept of the action budget. In this case the warlord has used some of his budget instead of the original summoner, but a price has been paid.

My take, as long as a creature has a basic attack, I would pay it
Yeah, I don't think there is even a question there rules-wise. If it is an ally and has a BA then Commander's Strike will work by RAW as DS has said.

So the only real issue in the Summons vs Warlord question is that the vast majority of summons lack a BA of any kind. This generally also means they are unable to OA, though there are a fair number that specifically DO have an attack that can be used as an interrupt or reaction IIRC.
 

spayne

Visitor
As the rules state, summoned creatures have no actions of their own. The summoner can have them act by using the commands listed in the power (or a minor action to make them move).

If a summoning power allows the creature to attack, the summoner makes the attack using his own statistics. There is no rule for using the summoner's statistics for attacks that are not commanded by the summoner using the actions listed in the power.

Even if the creature has a basic attack listed, it only works when the summoner uses an action to make the attack, since the creature has no statistics of its own and there are no rules for most summoned creatures attacking outside of when they are being commanded by the summoner.
 

DracoSuave

Visitor
As the rules state, summoned creatures have no actions of their own. The summoner can have them act by using the commands listed in the power (or a minor action to make them move).

If a summoning power allows the creature to attack, the summoner makes the attack using his own statistics. There is no rule for using the summoner's statistics for attacks that are not commanded by the summoner using the actions listed in the power.

Even if the creature has a basic attack listed, it only works when the summoner uses an action to make the attack, since the creature has no statistics of its own and there are no rules for most summoned creatures attacking outside of when they are being commanded by the summoner.
Every power in the game consumes an action of the user. If someone uses a power that allows you to utilize a power on your turn, you are not required to spend the action for that power.

As a relevant example, if you get Commander's Strike'd, you do not have to spend the action cost for the melee basic attack that you make. Granting others attacks circumvents action costs.

The same applies to summonings. If the summoning has listed a basic attack, then Commander's Strike will allow that to work because Commander's Strike circumvents all action costs.

And the fact it uses your attack roll and your attack stats? Irrelevant.
 

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