D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
pemerton said:
To those who think that "spike healing" (Neonchameleon's "panic button") can be handled other than via a particular class or suite of abilities, what is your mechanical model for a leader/commander?

Basically, three kinds of vampire.

Meaning, there's a lot of different mechanics that can get at the idea.

Fighter who can share his bonus die with allies? Bard (inspiring song) with a soldier background? Ninja with a certain specialty that lets it spend actions for others (4e warlord mechanics divorced from the class)? Rogue with a high Charisma (just has high skill checks)? Paladin who establishes a war-temple and attracts an armada (some sort of domain management system)?

I'm a fan of multiple mechanical models for most things.

pemerton said:
Fate Points and other forms of self-healing or self-generated damage mitigation don't emulate this fictional trope. They emuate other tropes (like Conan's ability to rally under the most adverse circumstances - in 4e this is second wind, and other self-healing powers).

Yeah, that highlights the fact that inspirational healing and the warlord as a character class aren't necessarily linked to me. You don't need the inspirational healing to be a charismatic tactical commander, and you don't necessarily think of inspirational healing when you think of a charismatic, tactical commander. And they can still go together, though they needn't.
 

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
I'd like to see a distinct Warlord class. I still dislike the name, but that's relatively minor as compared to the concept.

As a side note, I wouldn't mind seeing miscellaneous abilities that give "Warlord"-like effects. Feats or backgrounds for some healing, buffs, etc. As always, play what you like :)
 

pemerton

Legend
I agree that self-healing or self-generated damage mitigation are not the same as the Warlords inspirational healing. You're right, they do all emulate different tropes.

The mechanic needs to be an external, inspirational one (as you posit), and not a self-generated or self-possessed resource. However, I do not believe (as some stubbornly stick to) that this requires a unique and seperate class. I think seperating these abilities into something any character can take allows for building a straight-up, 4E Warlord emulation, and allows others to also add such Warlord characteristics to their non-Warlord characters.
My main reason for thinking of it as happening at (roughly speaking) the class level rather than the feat level is that, if it happens only at the feat level, it's likely not to be robust enough (in terms of reliability and effect) to sit nicely against a cleric.

(Burning Wheel doesn't have this problem, because it's a classless system.)

That's not an argument on its own for a separate class, though - I'll come back to that in replying to KM.

inspirational healing and the warlord as a character class aren't necessarily linked to me. You don't need the inspirational healing to be a charismatic tactical commander, and you don't necessarily think of inspirational healing when you think of a charismatic, tactical commander. And they can still go together, though they needn't.
A charismatic tactical commander isn't necessarily about healing. But someone like Aragorn or Faramir or Arthur is not primarily a tactical commander. They are inspiring commanders. They restore hope and engender resolution.

If D&D had very robust morale effects for PCs, they could operate upon that aspect of the game (and paladins would fit into that model, too). As it is, though, D&D does not have robust morale effects for PCs: PCs are only affected by fear when it's overtly magical (and hence mind-controlling) in nature. Hence, the only domain of combat capability for inspirational leaders to work on, at least that I can see, is hit points.

Hence the reason why the warlord sits alongside the (STR-)cleric or the paladin: all are combatants who also inspire and restore resolve, courage and will in those whom they lead. And the model for this is hit point restoration.

Basically, three kinds of vampire.

Meaning, there's a lot of different mechanics that can get at the idea.

Fighter who can share his bonus die with allies? Bard (inspiring song) with a soldier background? Ninja with a certain specialty that lets it spend actions for others (4e warlord mechanics divorced from the class)? Rogue with a high Charisma (just has high skill checks)? Paladin who establishes a war-temple and attracts an armada (some sort of domain management system)?

I'm a fan of multiple mechanical models for most things.
Sure, but before we get to three kinds of vampire let's get at least one up and running.

Aragorn is (to me) pretty clearly not a ninja, nor a rogue. Despite the tendency of all Tolkien protagonists to recite poetry at the drop of a hat, I don't think he's a bard either - nor is Faramir or Arthur, in my view. The D&D bard is too much it's own thing these days, and is not associated primarily with being a battle captain.

Of your options, that leaves the paladin - which I already canvassed as occupying the same archetypical space, but in the D&D context being overtly magical - and the fighter.

If we look at the fighter for a non-magical option, we have to consider what can be traded off to create adequate room for an inspiring martial leader who will be capable of occupying something like the same mechanical space in the game as the cleric does. In 4e, the fighter has quite a lot to trade off: armour proficiency, marking and the associated combat challenge, a very meaningful +1 to hit, and better hit points and surges.

In D&Dnext, I don't have enough of a sense yet of how the classes are built to know what the scope is for trade offs. But hit points, at least, seem to be defined at the class level. The fighter doesn't have anything quite like marking to trade off. Attack bonuses seem to be built in at the class level. So really, we would be talking about trading off perhaps some proficiencies (the cleric builds provide a precedent for that) and the expertise dice options.

The current options don't strike me as going very deep. Strike Command seems somewhat weak, especially as a fighter is a pretty reliable hitter and so is likely to be better off going with deep wound or, if a frontline combatant, the perhaps overpowered (in compared to the others) shield slam.

Warning Shout looks more useful than Strike Command - permitting a buff of AC to lower-AC PCs - but doesn't on its own capture the spirit of the romantic battle captain, nor substitute for healing. Bolster Allies is comparable in this respect to Warning Shout, I think.

Oddly enough, Attack Orders looks like the best of the "warlord-y" abilities, because it lets the fighter buff attack rolls carrying heavy payloads (eg the wizard's Ray of Enfeeblement). But that's still not giving us the romantic battle captain archetype.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I don't think the Warlord is a good solution to the no-healer campaign. It just goes from "we need a cleric" to "we need a warlord." It's the same problem with a different coat of paint.

I tend to agree. The problem is the Holy Trinity of party design. Tank, Healer, 1-N DPS. The problem is that as soon as you specialize one role, you automatically need the other two. A pure healer doesn't have the DPS to deal enough damage, nor the defenses to survive damage dealt. A pure tank doesn't have the healing to survive nor the DPS to defeat the enemy. A pure DPS lacks the defenses or healing.

But....when you give every class mechanics to defend themselves, heal themselves, and deal damage, you either get very overpowered clerics(basically, gestalt, two full classes), or you get fairly watered down, generic classes.

I would like to find some way to eliminate the need for a Holy Trinity without watering down the classes or over-powering them too much.
 

There are two very different aspects to the warlord.
The first is the idea of a tactical leader. The inspiring and strategic character that aids their allies, directing the battle and serving as a battlefield commander. He aids allies and directs the battle.
Then there is the idea of the non-magical healer who coaches people to shrug off wounds.
The two idea are very, well, different. They serve two very different purposes.

The tactical leader is an intelligent character but the inspiring healer is charismatic. They rely on entirely different primary stats. (And the latter overlaps with the bard.)
As has been remarked, you don't expect the captain of the guard to heal you. Captain America, Robin Hood, or King Arthur don't stop to bandage people's wounds. And you don't expect field medics or M*A*S*H surgeons to lead on the battlefield.

I see a role for the strategist as a class. It could work and be a lot of fun. But it looks like we get a fighter subclass instead.

For martial healing... That might work best as a rules modules. Something you add on that any character can attempt with varying degrees of success.
After all, if healing is morale-based and hitpoints are skill, why are they limited to a certain number of times per day? Do inspiring speeches just stop working? Likewise, why can't the bard (or the noble background) also heal through inspiration?
 

Obryn

Hero
The tactical leader is an intelligent character but the inspiring healer is charismatic. They rely on entirely different primary stats. (And the latter overlaps with the bard.)
As has been remarked, you don't expect the captain of the guard to heal you. Captain America, Robin Hood, or King Arthur don't stop to bandage people's wounds. And you don't expect field medics or M*A*S*H surgeons to lead on the battlefield.
But you might expect Captain America to encourage you to fight on capably even though you're wounded. In other words, hit points.

I agree that medics aren't leaders. But warlords aren't medics, even with healing capability.

-O
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
After all, if healing is morale-based and hitpoints are skill, why are they limited to a certain number of times per day? Do inspiring speeches just stop working?

Yes, if morale is low enough.

Likewise, why can't the bard (or the noble background) also heal through inspiration?

Why can't ANY charismatic leader do this if he is charismatic enough?* Don't religious leaders inspire that kind of energy? Can't an arcanist be that inspirational? ESPECIALLY one who focuses on charm/hypnosis/mind-affecting abilities?





* Read that as having a high charisma and possibly a feat with Leadership as a prereq. For those classes it matches most closely, perhaps they get them as bonus feas or don't need the Leadership prereq.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
A charismatic tactical commander isn't necessarily about healing. But someone like Aragorn or Faramir or Arthur is not primarily a tactical commander. They are inspiring commanders. They restore hope and engender resolution.

Yeah, Yuna in FFX also comes to mind. Or really most any team mom kind of character.

It seems like the specific mechanic you're looking for is "one character that enables allies to fight on despite their injuries, without obvious magical special effects."

That specific mechanic doesn't need to take the form of a panic button, or actual HP healing. In fact, that's kind of not a great model of how those characters inspire others. It's not with a word or an action or a deed, it's simply by their presence.

That could be temp HP (a la the 4e artificer's temp HP ability). That could be something like the skald aura in 4e. That could be granting allies an "operate below 0 hp" ability a la 2e boars. It could be creating healing salves. It could be a bonus to saves (especially vs. fear or death). It could be bardic music (though that rides the line of magic, it doesn't need to) or something mechanically identical. It could be an ability that cancels damage (negating attacks), or provides rewards for fighting on (temp HP for attacking a target).

It could ALSO be inspirational healing, but it needn't be to get at that specific dynamic.

But "keeps allies fighting on despite their injuries without magic" is also a very specific kind of vampire. It's entirely possible to take a lightly armored paladin with a Forester background and call it Aragorn. Lay on hands might be all you need or want.

But if you really wanted a LotR feel, you should probably adopt a LotR-friendly healing module, like one that models long-term injuries and death spirals, but also allows for protagonists to be functionally immortal. Fate points + an injury mechanic sound great. And then your Aragorn works by taking a specialty that removes penalties for being injured or that spends Fate points on friends when they fall.
 
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Szatany

First Post
How about this setup.
Characters have wound points and hit points (exact numbers don't really matter and would depend on campaign type).
Wounds represent physical damage, HP represent fatigue, luck, morale, grit etc.
All damage dealt to you causes wounds (at whatever formula), unless you spend hit points to ignore damage. This is a shift in mentality - HP becomes a resource you use, rather than passive thing.
You can also spend some HP to make re-rolls of whatever physical activity fits the concept of HP.
If you have wounds, you get cumulative penalty to all rolls.
You still have much more HP than wounds, so the feeling of D&D is mostly preserved.

This allows to have various types of healing and is pretty clean.
Magic recovers wounds.
Divine magic may also recover HP.
Warlords and other inspiration-like abilities, grit, second wind etc. can restore HP but never wounds. They can also make characters pay less HP to make rerolls and may allow characters to ignore penalties from wounds for a time.
 

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