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Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?

Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?



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radferth

First Post
Slightly OT, but reminded of this by TLR's comment on 1e magic users. When I played 1e, low-level wizards would just stand around after using their spells. Once in a while, I would play one who would throw darts or daggers, and he would actually have some effect doing this. In 3e, just about all sorcerers and wizards I have seem played carry crossbows or somesuch for when they are out of spells, and they are generally ineffective because they lack a good Dex score. (The exception being some sorcerers I have seen designed specifically around using a crossbow). I don't think that really says anything about balance, just an aside about how the game has evolved.

As for the poll: sure, they tried for balance. Many were unhappy with the result, but it worked well enough for me when I played. I think Unearthed Arcana was not so well balanced.
 


Celebrim

Legend
When the DMG talks of game balance, it doesn't mean anything at all like the term 'game balance' is used today. The idea of parity between the classes or even characters wasn't even a consideration.

When 1st edition AD&D talked about balance, what it had in mind was that the game attained an appropriate degree of challenge and reward so that it was always still a struggle to attain further success but never so much of a struggle that success felt arbitrary or forever out of reach. When 1st edition AD&D talks about balance, it has in mind the idea of 'fairness', but it doesn't remotely care about 'equality of results'. It only means that each player has equal oppurtunity to succeed. That his character may be inherently weaker than another player's character at the table is not really a consideration. Over time it is assumed he will have a chance to play many characters, some of which will obtain great power and some of which may become favored and successful despite the early odds stacked against them.

Balance as we would use the term today is barely considered.

This manifest in everything in the game.

Players rolled for their stats randomly. This was intended to be fair. It was never intended to be balanced.

You might get better than a 16 in your prime requisite, and so advance in levels faster. This was intended to be fair in as much as the player was playing a character with natural advantages and so should do so. It was never intended to be balanced.

You might have such bad stats that you could only qualify to be a rogue or perhaps a M-U that lacked the potential for much advancement, or you might have such good stats that you could play a Ranger or a Paladin. This was considered to be fair, in as much as any one might someday get a character of this sort and would then qualify for the benefits, but it was never considered to be balanced as we would use the term.

Someone criticized this philosophy as an attempt to balance things as a result of 'rarity' and mocked the effort as stupid. And it would be, if to Gygax balance meant what the mocker means. But it clearly doesn't. Gygax believed the game balanced if superior advantages were rare because he wasn't meaning a balance between players as if the central idea of the game was a spirit of envy and competition between the players. This was not even really considered and would only have been considered if the focus of the game was combat between the players. Had this been the focus of the game, Gygax, with his war gaming background could certainly have produced rules that granted an equal likelihood of victory to both sides, but it was never the point of the game. Rarity balanced the game precisely because the presence of one more powerful player did not itself it the balance between challenge and reward such that the campaign became imbalanced. And, if it happened that the players managed to all acquire rare and powerful abilities through fair play, then that was their just reward for long and diligent play.

How can you complain that the system was broken because people circumvented the system (or to be more clear, they cheated) even when they had been expressedly adviced not to do so.

So to answer the question, "Yes, the system was designed to be balanced.", but for the most part, that didn't mean then what it meant now.

Actually, Gygax probably succeeded at his goal of 'balance' far better than any modern designer has succeeded in theirs.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Isle of the Ape, by Gary Gygax, which began exploring the higher level rules (and added in a few new ones, such as negative to hit numbers representing additional damage).

18th+ level characters, plus pregens.

Cheers!

I think I'd have to call that an aberration, it's both right at the tail of 1E and reading the intro, it seems to specifically be catering to "those who have been demanding high-level adventures". It seems to be the first (only?) venture into play of that level in 1E. I'd be more likely to compare it against...

D1-D3 - 10-14th level
Q1 - 10-14th level
EX1 - 10-12th
S1 - 10th-14th

Even the mighty DragonLance epic (DL14) ends with characters no higher than 13th, most being 11th-13th.
 

Ariosto

First Post
As for the poll: sure, they tried for balance. Many were unhappy with the result, but it worked well enough for me when I played. I think Unearthed Arcana was not so well balanced.
I think the Druid could do with some adjustment, generally in the direction of slower advancement (but 2e -- at a cursory look -- seemed to me to "Nerf" it too much). I think there are a number of good reasons Gygax planned to change the Bard to a regular class for his projected 2nd Edition.

The Barbarian, balance-wise, probably gets a worse rap than deserved ... but all otherwise considered, don't hold your breath waiting to see a second one in my campaign.

Cavaliers? Ha! Drow Cavaliers? Ha, ha, ho, ho, hee hee! -- Next, you'll be suggesting Deep Gnome PCs ...

Make that singular, as in probably unique, and maybe -- if you're the right player -- we can talk about it.

Keep the non-lethal combat rules, though; easy to separate 'em after the pages fall out of that cheap-ass binding, eh?
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Keep the non-lethal combat rules, though; easy to separate 'em after the pages fall out of that cheap-ass binding, eh?

I had mine rebound. Urgh.

I didn't realise for years that there was substantial errata (like a list of what multiclass characters were legal!)
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I think the Druid could do with some adjustment, generally in the direction of slower advancement (but 2e -- at a cursory look -- seemed to me to "Nerf" it too much).

2e didn't nerf the druid: they completely destroyed the Cleric and Magic-User classes and subclasses. The introduction of spheres and schools as more than just descriptive text completely ruined the balance of those classes, as well as destroying the uniqueness of the Illusionist and the Druid. The Druid sort of maintained some uniqueness, the Illusionist was gutted and left to rot.

There are many things that 2e clearly did better than 1e. The redesign of the Cleric, Druid, Magic-User and Illusionist was not one of those things.

Cheers!
 

ggroy

First Post
I think I'd have to call that an aberration, it's both right at the tail of 1E and reading the intro, it seems to specifically be catering to "those who have been demanding high-level adventures".

Back in the day whenever we wanted to do really high level adventures (ie. greater than level 15 or 20), we usually ended up having the campaigns set in other planes where the players were mostly fighting demons, nerfed gods, and other deities. It kinda got silly after awhile, of fighting deity and after deity.
 

cattoy

First Post
The title of the thread assumes that AD&D1 was 'designed'.

I'm not so sure I can buy into that, as AD&D1 is more of a conglomeration of mismatched and occasionally contradictory game mechanics than a cohesive design. If AD&D was a car, I'm pretty sure it would be that car Homer made in the Simpsons.

It's more like they took D&D and added random stuff to it. So you get 18/XX STR scores for fighters, but nothing like it for any other class or statistic.

Would the 'designers' of AD&D1 know what game design was? Who can say? All we are left with is the document they produced. I can see evidence of attempts to implement game balance. But as a whole, is it balanced?

Not so much.
 

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